Cash - On the way out.

[Sir_Fondles]

Just now, fforest said:

Well if you do mind loosing your freedom I guess it should not concern you at all....

What freedom am I losing by having a paperwork trail of my purchases ?

Maybe I need to withdraw some cash from the ATM and buy a tin foil hat.

[Thai Spice]

What amazes me is  people saying stuff like "I have nothing to hide" "Why should I be concerned" etc.....

It is showing an absolute ignorance of the implications of what happens to their data.  This is just like having permanently somebody shadowing you, noting every of your actions, and storing the note pad. One day one of those records may be handy.... Or somebody offers to buy it. 

My freedom and privacy are top priorities for me. If I want volunteerily to share some of it (like here) thats MY decision, but what I dont accept is anybody (being it government, big business or who ever) shadowing my every movement and action.

 

[john luke]

13 minutes ago, fforest said:

You dont have to be a rocket scientist to see if there is no cash there will be a record of each and every purchase you make your entire life.....If this fact does not concern some one they had better check to see if they even have a pulse...

The implications are staggering....

Maybe the new social czars will decide you have been drinking to much beer so for the next year your card only can buy one beer a day any where in the world for  as punishment....

Need I go on.... 
 

I think there is a flaw in the logic of the above post.  Let me give an example.  I do most of my supermarket shopping at two of the larger supermarkets in UK, Asda and Morrisons.  Without exception I pay with a credit card.  The til receipt shows the items I have purchased plus the last four numbers of my credit card.  My credit card statement shows the name of the Supermarket and the total amount I have paid.  The card issuers therefor have no idea what I have purchased but know I have purchased goods from the named supermarket.

I can see your point regarding there being a record of every purchase.  The main implication of that in my view is that it could have an impact on cash in hand jobs and hence an inflationary effect as the correct amount of tax would have to be paid.  Perhaps an old Scottish Tradition which attracted the attention of HMRC some time ago, where for example Mr X was good at painting and decorating and Mr Y was a plumber and kitchen fitter.  Mr X painted and decorated Mr Y's house and in return Mr Y fitted a new bathroom for Mr X.  The courts deemed that this was an activity which effectively was generating income for the parties and successfully claimed tax.

I don't think that cash in hand would be totally eliminated and think it will probably develop into what was a cash job being done and the recipient paying for the contractor's groceries for example for a month or buying him/her a new TV.

The other creative area that I am aware of is where a merchant offering goods or services which are not socially acceptable (perhaps a strip club, brothel or viagra/sex toy seller) wants to conceal his true business a name such as 'Enterprise Sales' is created and credit/debit card debits show that as the name of the trader.

I think at the moment that it is a step too far to link privacy issues with going cashless.  Whether it will be the same in 20 years time is perhaps less certain.

[Thai Spice]

@john luke, 

The cashless thing is just one more privacy issue being added to a long serie ! 

My phylosophie is to limit those privacy issues as much as I can.  In our actual society it is nearly impossible to avoid them, I agree, but at least we can avoid subscribing to more of them.  And approving a cashless society is giving away a large chunk of our privacy.

Concerning your supermarket example, I hope you realize that they build a database based on customers purchase history. For internal "profiling" but most of the time they also resale it to data "aggregators" etc... And from there you have no control on what it is used for.

Same as with their "fidelity or member cards" . Again I understand their business point of view, but I want to keep the option to buy stuff completely anonymously. Why ? Because it is a part of my freedom.

So yes, I can pay electronically when convenient for me, but I WANT to keep the option to pay cash, meaning in all discretion.

If I buy a bottle of parfum for my mistress or a sextoy, it is my right to keep this 100% private.

Watch the next step with CC payment : facial recognition (like used at immigration), under some security excuse ... Now your picture is again in another database... It never stops.

What is next ? Mandatory paying hookers with a CC ?

 

[fforest]

4 minutes ago, john luke said:

I think there is a flaw in the logic of the above post.  Let me give an example.  I do most of my supermarket shopping at two of the larger supermarkets in UK, Asda and Morrisons.  Without exception I pay with a credit card.  The til receipt shows the items I have purchased plus the last four numbers of my credit card.  My credit card statement shows the name of the Supermarket and the total amount I have paid.  The card issuers therefor have no idea what I have purchased but know I have purchased goods from the named supermarket.

I can see your point regarding there being a record of every purchase.  The main implication of that in my view is that it could have an impact on cash in hand jobs and hence an inflationary effect as the correct amount of tax would have to be paid.  Perhaps an old Scottish Tradition which attracted the attention of HMRC some time ago, where for example Mr X was good at painting and decorating and Mr Y was a plumber and kitchen fitter.  Mr X painted and decorated Mr Y's house and in return Mr Y fitted a new bathroom for Mr X.  The courts deemed that this was an activity which effectively was generating income for the parties and successfully claimed tax.

I don't think that cash in hand would be totally eliminated and think it will probably develop into what was a cash job being done and the recipient paying for the contractor's groceries for example for a month or buying him/her a new TV.

The other creative area that I am aware of is where a merchant offering goods or services which are not socially acceptable (perhaps a strip club, brothel or viagra/sex toy seller) wants to conceal his true business a name such as 'Enterprise Sales' is created and credit/debit card debits show that as the name of the trader.

I think at the moment that it is a step too far to link privacy issues with going cashless.  Whether it will be the same in 20 years time is perhaps less certain.

Your thinking is correct as far as how things are in the present....

But The people at the very top are not messing around and they play for keeps and they plan looong term....It would be almost unthinkable that a surveillance state would not be keeping complete records on all purchases.....

The media gushes constantly about how wonderful going cashless will be....They keep moving this forward one day one inch at a time.... 

 

 

[john luke]

1 hour ago, Thai Spice said:

@john luke, 

 

If I buy a bottle of parfum for my mistress or a sextoy, it is my right to keep this 100% private.

 

What is next ? Mandatory paying hookers with a CC ?

 

Your secret is safe with me here.🙂

[galenkia]

1 hour ago, fforest said:

Well if you do mind loosing your freedom I guess it should not concern you at all....

You already have CCTV cameras watching your every move,and now they are developing facial recognition software.You can be tracked by your mobile phone and so on.

I am not a fan of a lot of this new technology,all about monitoring and spying on citizens.

[thegrogmonster]

My life is so fucking boring I wouldn’t mind someone taking an interest.

I have rarely used cash for years now.


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[RR007]

Gotta say seeing I work heavily in finance but  I'm very much a cash man. Theres no agenda to that and I dont stick to it religiously but I've always got a bundle on me in the UK if I go anywhere outside of my home town.

I use Clarity card to pay for some stuff but invariably pay it all off from one of my Halifax accounts when its due. I never ever come Thailand without £3000 in folding "just in case"

I had an incident in 1994 In Thailand bear in mind pre internet and pre easy communications etc etc where suddenly I had no ready cash to hand. Wasn't my fault entirely down to Barclays at the time which did get sorted 72 hours later but like all Brits I was 6000 miles from home with no access to my cash....I was signing food slips at the Flipper to keep me going

I never forgot that 3 days hence my 3k bundle hard cash on trips. (I churn it once a year through bank to get withdrawal slips )

Edited July 27, 2019 by RR007

[fforest]

1 hour ago, RR007 said:

Gotta say seeing I work heavily in finance but  I'm very much a cash man. Theres no agenda to that and I dont stick to it religiously but I've always got a bundle on me in the UK if I go anywhere outside of my home town.

I use Clarity card to pay for some stuff but invariably pay it all off from one of my Halifax accounts when its due. I never ever come Thailand without £3000 in folding "just in case"

I had an incident in 1994 In Thailand bear in mind pre internet and pre easy communications etc etc where suddenly I had no ready cash to hand. Wasn't my fault entirely down to Barclays at the time which did get sorted 72 hours later but like all Brits I was 6000 miles from home with no access to my cash....I was signing food slips at the Flipper to keep me going

I never forgot that 3 days hence my 3k bundle hard cash on trips. (I churn it once a year through bank to get withdrawal slips )

I hear you.....I went out to Koh larn one day alone...My money pouch got lost in the sea when I was swimming..I had 10 baht left on me and thats bloody it....I had to beg some Thai people for 20 baht to catch the ferry back...Let me tell you I felt lower than slug shit begging for 20 baht....

I could not even afford 10 baht for the baht bus home or even a small bottle of water from 7-11....Man that was the pits..... 

[KhunDon]

I got scammed in an Esso petrol station in UK, many years ago. The staff, who were of Indian persuasion, were using a hidden card reader and were taking money from peoples accounts. Hundreds got done, but thankfully the petrol company paid everyone back what they lost. The station closed and opened again by BP. 

Luckily, I had a separate account for Visa debit card use and I only kept a couple of hundred in it at any time, so they didn’t have access to the rest of my accounts. 

As for being worried I can be traced, I don’t really care. My iPhone can be traced to where I’m standing at any given time, who I phone is traceable, my car SatNav records my journeys, my car SOS System sends out my location in the event of an accident, no matter how small, my postcode tells everyone where I live, my email is traceable via my internet provider etc, etc. My car registration can be recorded and traced any time I use it on A or B roads and motorways, CCTV cameras can follow my movements in most towns and cities in the UK, the list goes on.

 No matter how hard you try, sooner or later you will be recorded doing something that can be traced. 

Facial/gait recognition is already on trial in some places in the UK and is probably going to be rolled out across most cities in the UK very soon.

I have no doubt that soon, your employer will try to microchip you (already happening in some places) so they can record various things you do during work time. 

Give it 20-30 years and personal microchips will possibly be in everyone, so no need to carry money or ID, it’ll be in the chip in your arm and that chip will probably be traceable, no matter what cave you decide to live in.

Does any of the above bother me, nope, not in the slightest. 🤔

 

[fforest]

4 hours ago, KhunDon said:

I got scammed in an Esso petrol station in UK, many years ago. The staff, who were of Indian persuasion, were using a hidden card reader and were taking money from peoples accounts. Hundreds got done, but thankfully the petrol company paid everyone back what they lost. The station closed and opened again by BP. 

Luckily, I had a separate account for Visa debit card use and I only kept a couple of hundred in it at any time, so they didn’t have access to the rest of my accounts. 

As for being worried I can be traced, I don’t really care. My iPhone can be traced to where I’m standing at any given time, who I phone is traceable, my car SatNav records my journeys, my car SOS System sends out my location in the event of an accident, no matter how small, my postcode tells everyone where I live, my email is traceable via my internet provider etc, etc. My car registration can be recorded and traced any time I use it on A or B roads and motorways, CCTV cameras can follow my movements in most towns and cities in the UK, the list goes on.

 No matter how hard you try, sooner or later you will be recorded doing something that can be traced. 

Facial/gait recognition is already on trial in some places in the UK and is probably going to be rolled out across most cities in the UK very soon.

I have no doubt that soon, your employer will try to microchip you (already happening in some places) so they can record various things you do during work time. 

Give it 20-30 years and personal microchips will possibly be in everyone, so no need to carry money or ID, it’ll be in the chip in your arm and that chip will probably be traceable, no matter what cave you decide to live in.

Does any of the above bother me, nope, not in the slightest. 🤔

 

Well if you dont mind getting mico chipped like a dog up to you.....But mass numbers of people dont plan to get chipped EVER no matter what, even if it hastens the end of their days here......

Edited July 27, 2019 by fforest

[Thai Spice]

"Give it 20-30 years and personal microchips will possibly be in everyone, so no need to carry money or ID, it’ll be in the chip in your arm and that chip will probably be traceable, no matter what cave you decide to live in."

No way this ever happens in France. Luckily we have very strict laws on privacy, and anyway we would be burning down stuff way before it gets at this point.

But good luck to those who accept to live like that. 

 

[Lirchenfeld]

Nothing worse than standing behind some +60 year old man who has to pay f.ex. 98. He stand there with a club of coins counting each and every coin.... "1, 2, oh this is a half, 2.50, 3.50 [...] 72.50, this coin looks so shiny maybe it is new, oh no it was minted in 1996, 73.50, oh how far did I get?, never mind I'll just start over, 1, 2, 3"... and then when he finally reaches 97 he realises he does not have 98, then scoops all the coins on the desk back into his pocket. Finds his wallet graps a 50 note, places it on the desk, then his hand goes back into pocket and he starts over from 50 with the coins..... 

It is such instances that you really wish to smash this mans head with a 1 litre block of icecream. But sadly the ice has melted while waiting....

The joys of cash.

[Sir_Fondles]

1 hour ago, Thai Spice said:

"Give it 20-30 years and personal microchips will possibly be in everyone, so no need to carry money or ID, it’ll be in the chip in your arm and that chip will probably be traceable, no matter what cave you decide to live in."

No way this ever happens in France. Luckily we have very strict laws on privacy, and anyway we would be burning down stuff way before it gets at this point.

But good luck to those who accept to live like that. 

 

So what if France changes the laws and allows it to happen ?

[KWA]

6 hours ago, john luke said:

I think there is a flaw in the logic of the above post.  Let me give an example.  I do most of my supermarket shopping at two of the larger supermarkets in UK, Asda and Morrisons.  Without exception I pay with a credit card.  The til receipt shows the items I have purchased plus the last four numbers of my credit card.  My credit card statement shows the name of the Supermarket and the total amount I have paid.  The card issuers therefor have no idea what I have purchased but know I have purchased goods from the named supermarket.

It's not only the credit card issuers you have to beware of.  That till receipt has a transaction code on it and links everything from bank account, to what you bought, where and when you bought and even who manned the till, if used.  They can all be linked together whether it's government, Google (or similar) or criminal bodies and though there may be positive reasons for having this data, there will always be someone looking to use it for reasons not beneficial to us individuals.

It is a bit tin foil hat behaviour to think like that, but there are a lot of people and organisations out there who don't give a damn for me or you.

 

7 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

Besides the fact that I hate waiting at the check out behind a guy that pays 80,000 IDR (5 euro) with a credit card , a cashless society is very risky.

Agree with most but not a problem with having to wait.  A contactless swipe has to be quicker than almost any other method.

What's worse is the person (normally female) paying by card who seems surprised and spends ages looking for their purse in their bag and locating the card they want to use.  Put it in your pocket before you get to the checkout so you can access it immediately.

[Sir_Fondles]

6 minutes ago, KWA said:

  They can all be linked together whether it's government, Google (or similar) or criminal bodies and though there may be positive reasons for having this data, there will always be someone looking to use it for reasons not beneficial to us individuals.

 

From my purchases at a supermarket, how can criminals use the information provided by the till receipt ?

[KWA]

14 minutes ago, Sir_Fondles said:

From my purchases at a supermarket, how can criminals use the information provided by the till receipt ?

Ask a criminal.

[Sir_Fondles]

2 minutes ago, KWA said:

Ask a criminal.

Can you recommend one on the forum that I could direct my question to ?

[KhunDon]

2 hours ago, fforest said:

Well if you dont mind getting mico chipped like a dog up to you.....But mass numbers of people dont plan to get chipped EVER no matter what, even if hastens the end of their days here......

Woof, woof. 🤗

[Stillearly]

3 hours ago, KhunDon said:

I got scammed in an Esso petrol station in UK, many years ago. The staff, who were of Indian persuasion, were using a hidden card reader and were taking money from peoples accounts. Hundreds got done, but thankfully the petrol company paid everyone back what they lost. The station closed and opened again by BP. 

Luckily, I had a separate account for Visa debit card use and I only kept a couple of hundred in it at any time, so they didn’t have access to the rest of my accounts. 

As for being worried I can be traced, I don’t really care. My iPhone can be traced to where I’m standing at any given time, who I phone is traceable, my car SatNav records my journeys, my car SOS System sends out my location in the event of an accident, no matter how small, my postcode tells everyone where I live, my email is traceable via my internet provider etc, etc. My car registration can be recorded and traced any time I use it on A or B roads and motorways, CCTV cameras can follow my movements in most towns and cities in the UK, the list goes on.

 No matter how hard you try, sooner or later you will be recorded doing something that can be traced. 

Facial/gait recognition is already on trial in some places in the UK and is probably going to be rolled out across most cities in the UK very soon.

I have no doubt that soon, your employer will try to microchip you (already happening in some places) so they can record various things you do during work time. 

Give it 20-30 years and personal microchips will possibly be in everyone, so no need to carry money or ID, it’ll be in the chip in your arm and that chip will probably be traceable, no matter what cave you decide to live in.

Does any of the above bother me, nope, not in the slightest. 🤔

 

Think my card was cloned in Brazil ( about ten years ago ) it was then used in Japan a few months later , lots of small purchases including sporting goods , so Barclaycard knew it wasn't me .... 😉 got all my money returned without issue 

[Thai Spice]

1 hour ago, Sir_Fondles said:

So what if France changes the laws and allows it to happen ?

Wont happen.... Yellow jackets out on the Champs Elysees again....

The government can not do anything they want.

 

[Sir_Fondles]

Just now, Thai Spice said:

Wont happen.... Yellow jackets out on the Champs Elysees again....

The government can not do anything they want.

 

wow, the yellow jackets are already protesting this potential change...... those fuckers are onto it !!

[Thai Spice]

1 hour ago, Sir_Fondles said:

Can you recommend one on the forum that I could direct my question to ?

 

1 minute ago, Sir_Fondles said:

wow, the yellow jackets are already protesting this potential change...... those fuckers are onto it !!

Great positive, informative contributions to the debate....

BTW "debate", google it .....

 

[john luke]

No one has overstepped the line yet on this thread, however some posts are getting very close to the said line.  

Please gents 'be careful here'.