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roobob

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4 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

Since 2 months, the first time a cop in panic pulled his gun out, I knew.it was a accident.waiting to happen.

The story which made the web of a.cop aiming a shotgun directly at demonstrators was another example of total lack of professionnalism. Never, ever point a loaded gun towards people in a demo ...  Even shooting in the air is stupid, bullets will come back down.

Problem is that the HKG police are a very good police at normal duties but they are not a riot police force, as in fact there never was any serious demos or riots in HKG in the past.

And when you use "normal" police for crowd control it is usually a unorganized mess.  Same thing has been proven, and largely discussed, during the yellow jackets demos in France.  Regular police, plain clothes investigation officers, traffic police, etc thrown in. And when you see who had the most incidents, it was them. 

Sadly, it has also been proven that only violence and victims will really have the government listen to the people.

Anyway, that young generation has understood one thing : if they lose, they end up living like mainlanders with zero civil rights, zero freedom of press, internet access controlled, and big brother monitoring all of their movements.

Search "social credit in China". Some good docus on Youtube as well.

The only hope they have IMO, is to keep the "1 country 2 systems" status quo as is till Xi goes (he aint very young) and hoping his successor will be less hardcore and the party line will soften.

 

But, yeah, as a French I am biaised ..."when you fight for freedom, you're ALWAYS right".  

Edit : concerning the gun thing, anybody who had some gun training will know that you NEVER aim a loaded gun at anybody (except if you really intend to shoot him).  Guns safety off, and bullet in the chamber in font of a civilian demo is a nono. 

 

Nothing, and I mean  nothing is more frightening and unpredictable than mob action. 

 

I have great empathy for those cops as they are the scapegoats and unfair targets for the chicken shit weak politicians.

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3 minutes ago, Glasseye said:

Nothing, and I mean  nothing is more frightening and unpredictable than mob action. 

 

I have great empathy for those cops as they are the scapegoats and unfair targets for the chicken shit weak politicians.

Agreed, and that's why only properly trained riot police should handle this.

And honestly, HKG demonstrators are not very violent, if you compare to some other countries.

In the HKG case the local politicians are.powerless, they simply obey Bejing's orders. And of course none of them has the guts to resign ....

 

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10 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

Agreed, and that's why only properly trained riot police should handle this.

And honestly, HKG demonstrators are not very violent, if you compare to some other countries.

In the HKG case the local politicians are.powerless, they simply obey Bejing's orders. And of course none of them has the guts to resign ....

 

I agree proper, effective and competent training is critical. 

The trouble is training is one thing, many of the actual incidents that you train for rarely occur. Cops are human. "Riot police" are primarily routine cops from all various regular duties. Many of them normally doing routine tasks such as traffic enforcement, airport security, desk (administrative), investigations, on and on. Then abruptly they are positioned in extremely high stress circumstances and expected to perform flawlessly. It just ain't realistic. Many of them perform brilliantly. Some of them do not know how to measure responses (cannot think straight) under immense pressure.

Then they are put under a microscope buy their "officials", the media, and the public. Eventually leading many of them (even the best) to wonder "why the f**k am I doing this".

Reasons why the turnover rate, disabilities, etc. are so high. Also a reason why the cop suicide rate is one of (if not the highest) rates among any occupation.

Most people do not have a clue as to what they are up against.

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6 minutes ago, Glasseye said:

"Riot police" are primarily routine cops from all various regular duties.

In HKG yes.  In France, as we are the champions of strikes and demonstrations we have a special corps named C.R.S. (Corps Republicain de Securité) who are specifically trained for this. 

They are a bit rough, and the usual shouts from the demonstrators is  "CRS = SS"

When no strikes or demos (yes it happens) they will participate in other security duties. They are well trained and rather feared.   

In HKG the cops facing the demos are, as mentionned in your post, "regular cops" .

 

From Wiki :

The Compagnies républicaines de sécurité (French: [kɔ̃paɲi ʁepyblikɛn də sekyʁite], Republican Security Companies), abbreviated CRS, are the general reserve of the French National Police. They are primarily involved in general security missions but the task for which they are best known is crowd and riot control.

 

The "general service" companies, together with the mobile gendarmerie, constitute a highly mobile reserve force for the government.[6] Their missions include:

  • Providing security during large public events and mass gatherings such as ceremonies, sport events, festivals, concerts, and demonstrations
  • Patrolling and securing specific areas (borders, suburban areas)
  • Maintaining law and order during demonstrations, riot control
  • Reinforcing local police forces in their general security missions
  •  
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Things getting worse...

Government issuing a law banning face mask is just adding oil on the fire.

Funny thing is that they are enforcing an old law from the colonial era for this...

Some gov officials want to instaur a curfew.... Another silly idea.  Except putting the PLA in the street there is no way to enforce it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/04/hong-kong-leader-threatens-harsher-crackdown-under-emergency-law

 

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2 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

Things getting worse...

Government issuing a law banning face mask is just adding oil on the fire.

Funny thing is that they are enforcing an old law from the colonial era for this...

Some gov officials want to instaur a curfew.... Another silly idea.  Except putting the PLA in the street there is no way to enforce it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/04/hong-kong-leader-threatens-harsher-crackdown-under-emergency-law

 

And thats exactly what China want.Its all playing into their hands.They will just play the waiting game

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20 minutes ago, flog said:

And thats exactly what China want.Its all playing into their hands.They will just play the waiting game

Not sure they would do this as this would be a disastrous signal to the world.

But, on the other hand Trump having publicly declared that its an internal Chinese problem and he will not "advise" anything, Bejing could interprete that as a "do as you want" signal.

 

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Was an absolute bizzare experience being in the heart of Central on Friday afternoon in immediate aftermath of Currie Lamb's most insane press conference ever. Never imagined a CBD could go from complete business as usual to unchecked anarchy in a matter of 15 minutes.....

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54 minutes ago, STARGAZER said:

Was an absolute bizzare experience being in the heart of Central on Friday afternoon in immediate aftermath of Currie Lamb's most insane press conference ever. Never imagined a CBD could go from complete business as usual to unchecked anarchy in a matter of 15 minutes.....

Considering the stupidy of her announcement, what else was to be expected ?

Putting oil on the fire....

She should resign if she had a minimum of respect for HK citizen. 

Edited by Thai Spice
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On 10/7/2019 at 10:20 AM, Skalliwag said:

Just changed my flights.

Had a layover in Hongkong,which I usually like.f**k it.

90 minutes and I’m gone.

Gets me into Bangkok nice and early.

I just made a reservation through HKG on American. I'm not going to worry about it. The other flight options I was looking at sucked.

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  • 5 weeks later...
46 minutes ago, Thai Spice said:

This is absolutely unacceptable and I hope the cop will be charged for murder.

HKG cops show more and more complete lack of professionalism.

Now things will really turn ugly for sure, and deserved.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-50370715

This is simply shooting an unarmed civilian at point blank

 

For me the 41 second film is inconclusive.  The build up to this scenario is unknown.  What is being said by suspects and the police is unknown (or not understood by me).  The reason the first male was detained is not known.  The reason the suspect(s) are wearing masks is not known.

Assuming the law in Hong Kong is based on UK common law the police officer would appear to have two defences

1 Self defence - Did the officer genuinely feel in fear for his personal safety? If so, were his actions reasonable in the circumstances?

2 Prevention of Crime - Did the officer believe that the suspect(s) were about to commit a crime? Was the force used reasonable and justifiable to prevent that crime being committed.

 

My view at the moment is that there is insufficient evidence available to come to any reasonable conclusion.

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2 hours ago, john luke said:

For me the 41 second film is inconclusive.  The build up to this scenario is unknown.  What is being said by suspects and the police is unknown (or not understood by me).  The reason the first male was detained is not known.  The reason the suspect(s) are wearing masks is not known.

Assuming the law in Hong Kong is based on UK common law the police officer would appear to have two defences

1 Self defence - Did the officer genuinely feel in fear for his personal safety? If so, were his actions reasonable in the circumstances?

2 Prevention of Crime - Did the officer believe that the suspect(s) were about to commit a crime? Was the force used reasonable and justifiable to prevent that crime being committed.

 

My view at the moment is that there is insufficient evidence available to come to any reasonable conclusion.

John, under NO circumstances a police officer draws his gun in a demonstration. And sure not fires on an unarmed demonstrator.

Sadly, like the 2 precedent cases this will probably be swept away. I hope not. 

Even at the height of the Yellow Jacket protests, which were pretty violent did any police officer fired a shot, even in the air. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Thai Spice said:

John, under NO circumstances a police officer draws his gun in a demonstration. And sure not fires on an unarmed demonstrator.  Should not draw a firearm in these circumstances - another unknown is why did he.  Again why did he fire, we do not know what made him fire.

Sadly, like the 2 precedent cases this will probably be swept away. I hope not. 

Even at the height of the Yellow Jacket protests, which were pretty violent did any police officer fired a shot, even in the air. 

 

 

I have commented above.  Again still too many unknowns in my opinion.  

The only other point I would make is that the Hong Kong Police are routinely armed.  That means they would have had a certain level of training, however that training would not be of the quality or intensity that the Police in UK (excluding Northern Ireland)  have where only a small proportion of police officers are armed.  If any are prosecuted they are prosecuted as individuals not as police officers and consequently it is necessary to consider their honest beliefs at the time any incidents subject of proceedings took place.

Difficult sometimes but better to step back until all the available evidence is secured; that is the time to make a judgement.

 

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John,

This is the 3rd person shot at point blank since the demos began.

All 3 unarmed.  

Plus one cop who rode his motorcycle in a group of demonstrators a few days ago. This one was immediately suspended.

 

This kind of stuff can only make matters worse and is like putting oil on the fire. Things will only escalade.  Exactly what is happening right now.

 

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15 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

John, under NO circumstances a police officer draws his gun in a demonstration. And sure not fires on an unarmed demonstrator.

Sadly, like the 2 precedent cases this will probably be swept away. I hope not. 

Even at the height of the Yellow Jacket protests, which were pretty violent did any police officer fired a shot, even in the air. 

 

Disagree.

It would depend on the circumstances that are occurring at that present time that the police officer had to make that decision of drawing his weapon.

As for the incident above....agree with john luke…. the video is inconclusive and more information is needed to make an informed decision.

cheers

 

 

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2 minutes ago, roobob said:

Disagree.

It would depend on the circumstances that are occurring at that present time that the police officer had to make that decision of drawing his weapon.

As for the incident above....agree with john luke…. the video is inconclusive and more information is needed to make an informed decision.

cheers

 

 

The guy is clearly unarmed, nothing in his hands.

And the fecking cop shoots him in the chest at a 2m distance ?

Never learned to "shoot to immobilise, not to kill" ?

I stand by my point. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Thai Spice said:

The guy is clearly unarmed, nothing in his hands.

And the fecking cop shoots him in the chest at a 2m distance ?

Never learned to "shoot to immobilise, not to kill" ?

I stand by my point. 

 

As said.... we do not have the full picture of what occurred..... you a going by a "cherry pick" moment from a video.

Shoot to immobilize...not to kill...… do you think these incidents are played out to a movie script..... oh we have to stop that fellow so I will draw my weapon and just wing him in the arm...555.

Police have other deterrents at their disposal... tear gas....capsicum spray.....  so for the policeman to pull his weapon he could have perceived that he or his colleagues were in danger of being harmed and had to go to that ultimate position.

We do not know the full story.... so why not wait to see what actually occurred.

Shoot to immobilize...not to kill.....555.....good one TS..... good one....555.

cheers 

 

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18 minutes ago, roobob said:

As said.... we do not have the full picture of what occurred..... you a going by a "cherry pick" moment from a video.

Shoot to immobilize...not to kill...… do you think these incidents are played out to a movie script..... oh we have to stop that fellow so I will draw my weapon and just wing him in the arm...555.

Police have other deterrents at their disposal... tear gas....capsicum spray.....  so for the policeman to pull his weapon he could have perceived that he or his colleagues were in danger of being harmed and had to go to that ultimate position.

We do not know the full story.... so why not wait to see what actually occurred.

Shoot to immobilize...not to kill.....555.....good one TS..... good one....555.

cheers 

 

Mate...enjoy your retirement....

Relax, sit back, enjoy a drink, the music, the view.... 

After that, the world they can do wat they want. Aint my job to even care about it...

Never forget we're on the way out....so enjoy the last kms !

Prosit !

 

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4 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

The guy is clearly unarmed, nothing in his hands.

And the fecking cop shoots him in the chest at a 2m distance ?

Never learned to "shoot to immobilise, not to kill" ?

I stand by my point. 

 

From what I understand, when you draw your weapon, you shoot to kill, not to warn.

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20 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

John,

This is the 3rd person shot at point blank since the demos began.

All 3 unarmed.  

Plus one cop who rode his motorcycle in a group of demonstrators a few days ago. This one was immediately suspended.

 

This kind of stuff can only make matters worse and is like putting oil on the fire. Things will only escalade.  Exactly what is happening right now.

 

I am not condoning or praising action by the police officers.

As far as criminal prosecutions:

  1. Subject to exceptions, a prosecution of an individual is just that.  A prosecution of an individual person.
  2. The person prosecuted may put forward a defence.  
  3. In considering that defence the court must consider the individual's state of mind and beliefs at the time the actions subject of the prosecution occurred.  Honest belief, reasonable belief are two of the considerations.  
  4. Reasonableness may also be a consideration.  Reasonableness may be subjective or objective dependant upon circumstances.
  5. What can not be said and I strongly challenge you on this point are statements such as 'This is the 3rd person shot at point blank since the demos began.' and 'All 3 unarmed.'  Different officers were involved in each incident and each incident must be viewed independently and without reference to the other incidents.  

A full investigation is needed where all the relevant evidence is obtained and documented followed by a review to ascertain whether any further evidence could be adduced by further investigation.  This would include witness evidence as well as real evidence such as CCTV.  All this must then be evaluated and considered before a decision to prosecute anyone is made.  The court process should be similar where the court or jury considers and evaluates the evidence relating to each case individually.  

I make these comments assuming that the legal system in Hong Kong and the principles and practices it uses are not too much at variance with UK common law.

 

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