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Toy Boy

Are you a British pensioner in Thailand?

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Then if you've been honest with DWP,  your state pension won't be index-linked. There's an All-Party Parliamentary Group on Frozen British Pensions chaired by Sir Roger Gale MP, and they are asking for written submissions to get their Inquiry started.

http://frozenbritishpensions.org/appg-for-frozen-british-pensions-launches-inquiry/

Anybody affected by a frozen pension can respond, just pen some answers to the questions under the heading "For those affected by frozen pensions" on this page:

http://frozenbritishpensions.org/2020-appg-inquiry/

and e-mail it to the address given:

appg@frozenbritishpensions.org

The closing date for submissions is 3 August 2020, so you haven't got long. I know it's unlikely to make any difference, but there's always an outside chance that the government is throwing so much money around at the moment they may not care about righting this wrong.

Even if it doesn't make much difference to you, it's worth doing as it's undeniably wrong that people who've paid the same taxes should receive different benefits simply because of where they chose to live after retiring. There are many British pensioners around the world whose main source of income is the frozen state pension, so be a sport and try to help them out by sending a response.

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British pensioners in Australia are treated the same. I seem to recall that some years ago a pensioner group launched a legal action to challenge this and it failed. 

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Live in the Philippines and it is indexed linked, In Thailand it is not.

Philippines and UK have social security agreements so the pension gets increased.

It would be a welcome boost for many pensioners in Thailand but also think it will fail as needs Thailand to agree to bilateral links.

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1 hour ago, Toy Boy said:

I know it's unlikely to make any difference, but there's always an outside chance

It won't happen, No chance........because the UK government is skint and needs all the revenue it can get. 

Ex-pats are an easy target to squeeze and skim money from because they are out of sight and out of mind. That's not gonna change. If anything, they are likely to get squeezed harder in future.

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1 hour ago, biggles said:

British pensioners in Australia are treated the same. I seem to recall that some years ago a pensioner group launched a legal action to challenge this and it failed. 

Yes, as I recall it ended up in the ECJ where the judges ruled that the state pension is a benefit rather than a contractual right so the government was free to meddle with it as it pleased.

Thanks a bunch, I'm glad we've left Europe now if that's the best your justice system can come up with, lol!

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Mr Mosquito said:

It won't happen, No chance........because the UK government is skint and needs all the revenue it can get. 

Ex-pats are an easy target to squeeze and skim money from because they are out of sight and out of mind. That's not gonna change. If anything, they are likely to get squeezed harder in future.

 

1 hour ago, Horizondave said:

Live in the Philippines and it is indexed linked, In Thailand it is not.

Philippines and UK have social security agreements so the pension gets increased.

It would be a welcome boost for many pensioners in Thailand but also think it will fail as needs Thailand to agree to bilateral links.

Yeah, that's what I said in the OP, but there's always a small chance. Rishi Sunak, for example, is an extremely decent and honest guy by all accounts, easily the most popular politician in the country at the moment. Even most Labour politicians like him. He might look more favourably on the result if the APPG finds that the government pension rules are patently unfair than his rancid predecessors, Gordon Brown and George Osbrown, would have done. So if not for yourself, then send them a response that might help others less fortunate than you are.

Edited by Toy Boy
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14 minutes ago, Toy Boy said:

Yeah, that's what I said in the OP, but there's always a small chance. Rishi Sunak, for example, is an extremely decent and honest guy by all accounts, easily the most popular politician in the country at the moment. Even most Labour politicians like him. He might look more favourably on the result if the APPG finds that the government pension rules are patently unfair than his rancid predecessors, Gordon Brown and George Osbrown, would have done. 

It's not about personalities or political parties. The government of the day is not going to give up a cost saving when it has a record amount of debt.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Toy Boy said:

 

Yeah, that's what I said in the OP, but there's always a small chance. Rishi Sunak, for example, is an extremely decent and honest guy by all accounts, easily the most popular politician in the country at the moment. Even most Labour politicians like him. He might look more favourably on the result if the APPG finds that the government pension rules are patently unfair than his rancid predecessors, Gordon Brown and George Osbrown, would have done. So if not for yourself, then send them a response that might help others less fortunate than you are.

It needs more than just a few guys sending messages to a petition, it also needs a reciprocal will from the Thai government to offer social security benefits which is the reason it is indexed linked in the Philippines.

I have recently send a personal letter to Boris Johnson at his parliamentary address in respect of stopping the unfair International Health Surcharge (IHS) that is added to applications for family visas. This was £200 a year up to 19 January 2019, that increased to £400 a year after that date which coincided with my wife's application. I can understand a charge for those who offer nothing in economic return to the UK government but when my wife is paying taxes and National Insurance it smacks of double taxation to use the NHS.  Further to this increase in January 2019 the charge is due to go up to £624 a year from this October and at a time when many are furloughed or without a job.

That paragraph above has little to do with pensions but if people are serious about changing laws, rules or government thinking a letter directly to their MP (in my case it is Boris) then that might have more sway than a petition by people enjoying life abroad. I would agree that the pension being index linked would be a great thing but being here in the UK my priority is to do what is best for my family and that is presently to see a reduction in some of these exorbitant charges for visa holders trying to build a life in this country.

On a final note I doubt many of those people enjoying their twilight years in places like Thailand are less fortunate than myself, trust me. 

Edited by Horizondave
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15 hours ago, Toy Boy said:

Thanks a bunch, I'm glad we've left Europe now if that's the best your justice system can come up with, lol!

BINGO

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35 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

BINGO

It's nothing to do with the Europe ... it's British governments that have made these decisions and people have retired overseas knowing the consequences ... A few whiny expats tried to say the UK was infringing on their human rights and took it to the ECJ , who backed the UK government.... how on earth can you blame the EU ? 

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3 minutes ago, Stillearly said:

It's nothing to do with the Europe ... it's British governments that have made these decisions and people have retired overseas knowing the consequences ... A few whiny expats tried to say the UK was infringing on their human rights and took it to the ECJ , who backed the UK government.... how on earth can you blame the EU ? 

The ECJ had the opportunity to put the injustice "RIGHT" and just demonstrated their total support for the UK government irrespective of justice, just a bunch of wankers imo and i'm not a whiny expat, far from it in fact.

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2 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

The ECJ had the opportunity to put the injustice "RIGHT" and just demonstrated their total support for the UK government irrespective of justice, just a bunch of wankers imo and i'm not a whiny expat, far from it in fact.

I'm glad to see they didn't interfere with UK Sovereignty myself ..... 

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Just now, Stillearly said:

I'm glad to see they didn't interfere with UK Sovereignty myself ..... 

but they're trying their best, the UK is well rid of them lol

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Horizondave said:

It needs more than just a few guys sending messages to a petition, it also needs a reciprocal will from the Thai government to offer social security benefits which is the reason it is indexed linked in the Philippines.

I have recently send a personal letter to Boris Johnson at his parliamentary address in respect of stopping the unfair International Health Surcharge (IHS) that is added to applications for family visas. This was £200 a year up to 19 January 2019, that increased to £400 a year after that date which coincided with my wife's application. I can understand a charge for those who offer nothing in economic return to the UK government but when my wife is paying taxes and National Insurance it smacks of double taxation to use the NHS.  Further to this increase in January 2019 the charge is due to go up to £624 a year from this October and at a time when many are furloughed or without a job.

That paragraph above has little to do with pensions but if people are serious about changing laws, rules or government thinking a letter directly to their MP (in my case it is Boris) then that might have more sway than a petition by people enjoying life abroad. I would agree that the pension being index linked would be a great thing but being here in the UK my priority is to do what is best for my family and that is presently to see a reduction in some of these exorbitant charges for visa holders trying to build a life in this country.

On a final note I doubt many of those people enjoying their twilight years in places like Thailand are less fortunate than myself, trust me. 

I think the point is that the UK's approach is fundamentally wrong and indexation should not depend on social security treaties or where you happen to settle down. If you've paid the same as somebody else, then you should receive the same benefit, no matter where you live.

Edited by Toy Boy
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17 hours ago, Mr Mosquito said:

It's not about personalities or political parties. The government of the day is not going to give up a cost saving when it has a record amount of debt.

So why bother setting up the APPG? I doubt that Labour and the other parties would bother taking part if they genuinely thought it was just a Tory sham.

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3 hours ago, Toy Boy said:

I think the point is that the UK's approach is fundamentally wrong and indexation should not depend on social security treaties or where you happen to settle down. If you've paid the same as somebody else, then you should receive the same benefit, no matter where you live.

I think it is a little bit more complex than that.

Many UK pensioners are spending their state pension in the UK whilst many overseas pensioners may never spend another penny here.

The index linked upratings have to be funded by somebody to take in to consideration inflation etc.

I do wish a Thailand pensioner got it index linked but it needs, secondly, a will on the Thai government to reciprocate on social security.

I think Canada and Australia pensioners are trying hard to have this uprated and their fight could see this change one day.

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49 minutes ago, Horizondave said:

I think it is a little bit more complex than that.

Many UK pensioners are spending their state pension in the UK whilst many overseas pensioners may never spend another penny here.

The index linked upratings have to be funded by somebody to take in to consideration inflation etc.

I do wish a Thailand pensioner got it index linked but it needs, secondly, a will on the Thai government to reciprocate on social security.

I think Canada and Australia pensioners are trying hard to have this uprated and their fight could see this change one day.

Against what the UK resident Pensioners spend in the UK, need be balanced what they "cost" the U.K.

  • Health Care
  • Social benefits
  • Free Bus Pass
  • Subsidized train travel
  • Winter Heating Allowance
  • Etc. etc.

U.K. Pensioners resident in Thailand get none of that and still don't get an Index Linked State Pension Pension

Has anyone ever calculated how much 1,000 average U.K. resident Pensioners typically cost the State, over and above their State Pension, and then compared that to the cost of Index Linking the Pensions of 1,000 average U.K. Pensioners living in the likes of Thailand ? I would be surprised if there wouldn't be a Nett saving. A saving that would then be increased by not having to have an additional administrative system just to keep track of which Pensioners did not get the "full" pension.

 

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4 hours ago, Toy Boy said:

So why bother setting up the APPG? I doubt that Labour and the other parties would bother taking part if they genuinely thought it was just a Tory sham.

LOL.....an APPG is not a big deal FFS. It's just an inquiry to appease a small pressure group.

There's nothing new being brought to the table. The fundamental facts are clear and have not changed. Previous inquiries failed. There's no reason why this one should succeed - particularly when the UK is in the midst of an economic crisis. MP's are not going to put the interests of a small group of people who don't live in the UK over the interests of their own constituents.

*Disclaimer : I'm a long long way from being a pensioner (so it doesn't affect me)...just giving you an economic reality chck 

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15 minutes ago, Proffesor said:

Has anyone ever calculated how much 1,000 average U.K. resident Pensioners typically cost the State, over and above their State Pension, and then compared that to the cost of Index Linking the Pensions of 1,000 average U.K. Pensioners living in the likes of Thailand ? I would be surprised if there wouldn't be a Nett saving. A saving that would then be increased by not having to have an additional administrative system just to keep track of which Pensioners did not get the "full" pension.

Disagree. The law isn't drafted that way by accident. It's drafted that way because there is an economic benefit to the state.

 

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39 minutes ago, Mr Mosquito said:

MP's are not going to put the interests of a small group of people who don't live in the UK over the interests of their own constituents

Don't you have MP representinc the Brits living overseas like we have ? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_for_French_residents_overseas

And I am not speaking about MP representing overseas territories, but all the French expats living overseas.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Proffesor said:

Against what the UK resident Pensioners spend in the UK, need be balanced what they "cost" the U.K.

  • Health Care
  • Social benefits
  • Free Bus Pass
  • Subsidized train travel
  • Winter Heating Allowance
  • Etc. etc.

U.K. Pensioners resident in Thailand get none of that and still don't get an Index Linked State Pension Pension

Has anyone ever calculated how much 1,000 average U.K. resident Pensioners typically cost the State, over and above their State Pension, and then compared that to the cost of Index Linking the Pensions of 1,000 average U.K. Pensioners living in the likes of Thailand ? I would be surprised if there wouldn't be a Nett saving. A saving that would then be increased by not having to have an additional administrative system just to keep track of which Pensioners did not get the "full" pension.

 

I think you are wrong and using the term 'costing the UK' is a little bit contentious in consideration of those living in the UK. The pension should be overhauled for everybody in real terms when comparing it to those pensions in nearby Europe. 

A lot of the benefits in old age such as subsidised bus and train passes are there to get pensioners spending their money, to keep them active and out of the health service. 

It's a little bit like that old argument that immigration is a burden on the UK's finances when every report highlights that legal immigrants into the country put more in the UKs coffers than they take out.

There are many conversations here about many pensioners who are a burden to the state but have never put a penny in but that is not being discussed here as we are talking indexed linked pensions for those who have paid in, like for like in terms of those entitled mainly to a full pension.

I think not getting an indexed linked pension has always been an emotive subject for pensioners in Thailand, it was for me when I lived there but somebody has to pay for this increase to the states expenditure and at this present time I can't see the government moving to change anything soon.

The talk today is of taxing those over 40 for their care costs as pensioners are forced to sell their homes and go bankrupt to pay for those costs in later life.

More emotive conversations to be had I think but I will opt out here as I have more important thinks to consider not least of all a daughter who is craving my attention.

 

 

Edited by Horizondave

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17 minutes ago, Thai Spice said:

Don't you have MP representinc the Brits living overseas like we have ? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_for_French_residents_overseas

And I am not speaking about MP representing overseas territories, but all the French expats living overseas.

 

I suppose we have a foreign secretary although we have people in the UK looking after pension reforms etc.

I would think consulates abroad are there to assist their overseas residents

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1 minute ago, Horizondave said:

I suppose we have a foreign secretary although we have people in the UK looking after pension reforms etc.

I would think consulates abroad are there to assist their overseas residents

Different things IMO. We have consulates also. Pensions are the same for everybody, except you have to submit a "proof of existence" every year. 

But any French citizens living overseas, and registered at the consulate, has the possibility to vote for our own MPs. And we have a few senators as well.

They were pretty helpfull in a recent revenue tax issue, where expats had a serious disadvantage vs residents in France.

See the link.

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1 hour ago, Thai Spice said:

Different things IMO. We have consulates also. Pensions are the same for everybody, except you have to submit a "proof of existence" every year. 

But any French citizens living overseas, and registered at the consulate, has the possibility to vote for our own MPs. And we have a few senators as well.

They were pretty helpfull in a recent revenue tax issue, where expats had a serious disadvantage vs residents in France.

See the link.

Pensioners who have the vote overseas should find out what party advocates index linking their pensions and vote appropriately, would be interested which party that is, I might vote for them too.

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5 hours ago, Proffesor said:

Against what the UK resident Pensioners spend in the UK, need be balanced what they "cost" the U.K.

  • Health Care
  • Social benefits
  • Free Bus Pass
  • Subsidized train travel
  • Winter Heating Allowance
  • Etc. etc.

U.K. Pensioners resident in Thailand get none of that and still don't get an Index Linked State Pension Pension

Has anyone ever calculated how much 1,000 average U.K. resident Pensioners typically cost the State, over and above their State Pension, and then compared that to the cost of Index Linking the Pensions of 1,000 average U.K. Pensioners living in the likes of Thailand ? I would be surprised if there wouldn't be a Nett saving. A saving that would then be increased by not having to have an additional administrative system just to keep track of which Pensioners did not get the "full" pension.

 

BINGO, you saved me posting and your post is bang on.  

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