Cheap finance and the move to EV

[Butch]

There's a school of thought that the UK and Eu Car market is at a turning point. Diesels (and high CO petrol cars) , in the opinion of many, have had their day and will be priced off the road in due course (increased Congestion charge in London to begin with) https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-expansion

There was also the possible introduction of a diesel ban in Bristol (now cancelled) but the seeds have been sown.

We're all now being encouraged to go electric or hybrid - sound familiar? It should, back when the last Labour Govt were in power, they encouraged the use of Diesels by the introduction of new vehicle taxation laws: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41985715

Are we seeing History repeating though? - Electric and Hybrid cars are not as clean as some may think, the materials used in manufacture are horrifically damaging to the areas they are mined from, and as expected, come from poor 3rd world exploited Countries such as Congo. I think that anyone driving their brand new EV and feeling happy about saving the planet may conveniently forget that little fact though. Also, generating electricity produces carbon, and while it's not an entirely clean process, it's not entirely unpolluting either.

In the UK today, financing and borrowing money has never been cheaper. I recently almost purchased a brand new BMW , along with huge dealer discounts and from the bank an interest rate of 2.4% if I wanted to avail of it. Had I opted for an electric car from different manufacturers such as Fiat, it becomes an attractive proposition. They're falling over themselves to get you to finance or PCP / lease, factoring in the money you will save in the long term by choosing EV / Hybrid.

Are the buying public making a rod for their own back though?. Certainly anyone living in the congestion zone in London can save up to £17.50 per day depending upon their choice of car by going EV. Locally I've seen more Tesla vehicles on the road than ever before. They may be fast, but a dull, characterless silent interior to me, seems like a mobile science lab. Is this another "fad" like diesels that will haunt us when we need to dispose of toxic batteries, increased costs on maintenance and perhaps a levy on the toxic materials used in manufacture to push the price up?.

For the meantime I'll keep my internal combustion engine nice and warm, but the elephant in the room isn't going to disappear if I buy an EV, in order to get that elephant to move, you need to speak to it in Chinese and ask it to stop polluting.

 

 

[lazarus]

Teslas, Priuses & hybrids rule the road here in California. Gas is pricey (for the US).

And, the Chinese are world leaders in NEV production and R&D.

. . .

How China put nearly 5 million new energy vehicles on the road in one decade

https://theicct.org/blog/staff/china-new-energy-vehicles-jan2021#:~:text=In 2020%2C nearly half of,vehicle production was in China.&text=Last but not least%2C many,EV capitals” were in China.

Global Plug-in Vehicle Sales Reached over 3,2 Million in 2020

https://www.ev-volumes.com

 

[Butch]

Would you change to an EV or hybrid Lazarus?. How are the deals working out in the US? Be interested to know as a comparison. A brand new BMWi3 S 5dr Auto here in the UK is £36925 without options, however there is a dealer discount available apparently, plus they can be had for a couple of K cheaper

I know that California has always been super restrictive on emission controls, I might be wrong but back in the 80's weren't some of the cars from California putting out less power than one from say, Michigan?.

Diesels in the UK are still popular, and for a secondhand option they offer good value as some people are keen to get rid of them. Mercedes seem to be hit pretty badly with depreciation on their models, so there's a few bargains to be had.

[lazarus]

11 minutes ago, Butch said:

Would you change to an EV or hybrid Lazarus?. How are the deals working out in the US? Be interested to know as a comparison. A brand new BMWi3 S 5dr Auto here in the UK is £36925 without options, however there is a dealer discount available apparently, plus they can be had for a couple of K cheaper

I know that California has always been super restrictive on emission controls, I might be wrong but back in the 80's weren't some of the cars from California putting out less power than one from say, Michigan?.

Diesels in the UK are still popular, and for a secondhand option they offer good value as some people are keen to get rid of them. Mercedes seem to be hit pretty badly with depreciation on their models, so there's a few bargains to be had.

Nope. My ride...

[Butch]

Just now, lazarus said:

Nope. My ride...

Good choice. W124 a solid, reliable and go on forever. They've got a bit of a cult following here in the UK, especially the diesels because seeing 300K miles plus out of them is pretty common.

[maipenrai]

The odds of me ever buying a new vehicle again are pretty slim - I'll be driving my old junkers as long as I can still find parts to keep them going. I see all manners of newer vehicles coming in and out of my friend's autobody shop and sometimes I drive them in and out for him - some are a real puzzle just to get moving, so crammed full of "features" (a polite word for electronic gimmicks) that he sometimes has to phone the dealers to ask them what to do if they don't want to run or move...rolling computers, way too complicated for the likes of me - any vehicle that takes a special, dealer-provided code to run again after you lift a battery cable off is totally out of the question for me. 

[Butch]

9 hours ago, maipenrai said:

The odds of me ever buying a new vehicle again are pretty slim - I'll be driving my old junkers as long as I can still find parts to keep them going. I see all manners of newer vehicles coming in and out of my friend's autobody shop and sometimes I drive them in and out for him - some are a real puzzle just to get moving, so crammed full of "features" (a polite word for electronic gimmicks) that he sometimes has to phone the dealers to ask them what to do if they don't want to run or move...rolling computers, way too complicated for the likes of me - any vehicle that takes a special, dealer-provided code to run again after you lift a battery cable off is totally out of the question for me. 

Spot on, my daily is a Subaru, no fancy electronics apart from the ECU, AWD system that is tried and trusted, cheap spares and cheap servicing. In the recent snow we had in the UK, it was faultless.

[Lantern]

Are we seeing History repeating though? - Electric and Hybrid cars are not as clean as some may think, the materials used in manufacture are horrifically damaging to the areas they are mined from, and as expected, come from poor 3rd world exploited Countries such as Congo. 

 

What you say is true Butch, but the answer could be right under our noses.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28770876

 

They "cooked" cannabis bark into carbon nanosheets and built supercapacitors "on a par with or better than graphene" - the industry gold standard.

Electric cars and power tools could harness this hemp technology, the US researchers say.

They presented their work at the American Chemical Society meeting in San Francisco.

"People ask me: why hemp? I say, why not?" said Dr David Mitlin of Clarkson University, New York, who describes his device in the journal ACS Nano.

"We're making graphene-like materials for a thousandth of the price - and we're doing it with waste.

 

"The hemp we use is perfectly legal to grow. It has no THC in it at all - so there's no overlap with any recreational activities."

 

 

[Butch]

If anyone is considering buying a second hand Mercedes Hybrid, think again...

This guy was quoted a 15k bill to replace the battery on his relatively young Mercedes Estate.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/mercedes-owner-horrified-after-15k-6560818

It may well transpire that EV's and hybrids are, in the long term, worse for the environment than a regular diesel or petrol engined car, more so if it means that the batteries need to be replaced after such a relatively short space of time. What I can't work out is if this is unique to Merc though, as there are plenty of 15 year old 300k+ mile Toyota Prius running around still!.

[forcebwithu]

11 hours ago, Butch said:

If anyone is considering buying a second hand Mercedes Hybrid, think again...

This guy was quoted a 15k bill to replace the battery on his relatively young Mercedes Estate.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/mercedes-owner-horrified-after-15k-6560818

It may well transpire that EV's and hybrids are, in the long term, worse for the environment than a regular diesel or petrol engined car, more so if it means that the batteries need to be replaced after such a relatively short space of time. What I can't work out is if this is unique to Merc though, as there are plenty of 15 year old 300k+ mile Toyota Prius running around still!.

I don't know much about EV's, but if I were in the market for one I would educate myself as much as possible on what to expect out of the battery.

In this instance he bought a used vehicle and by the nature of buying used, wouldn't know how well the previous owner took care of the battery.

I also think there's more to this story as while the article makes it clear it's an eight year old vehicle and at the time of purchase it had 49,000 miles on it, it isn't stated how long the new owner had the car and how many miles he put on it. I'm left wondering if we had those details the story wouldn't be as sympathetic to the new owner.

Curious if the 15 year old, 300+ mile Prius is still running on their original battery? One article (link) puts the useful life of their batteries at 8-10 years or 100k - 150k miles. Based on that stat the guy with the used Merc should have known he was coming to the end of the useful life of the battery in his car.

Edited January 31, 2022 by forcebwithu

[Butch]

19 hours ago, forcebwithu said:

I don't know much about EV's, but if I were in the market for one I would educate myself as much as possible on what to expect out of the battery.

In this instance he bought a used vehicle and by the nature of buying used, wouldn't know how well the previous owner took care of the battery.

I also think there's more to this story as while the article makes it clear it's an eight year old vehicle and at the time of purchase it had 49,000 miles on it, it isn't stated how long the new owner had the car and how many miles he put on it. I'm left wondering if we had those details the story wouldn't be as sympathetic to the new owner.

Curious if the 15 year old, 300+ mile Prius is still running on their original battery? One article (link) puts the useful life of their batteries at 8-10 years or 100k - 150k miles. Based on that stat the guy with the used Merc should have known he was coming to the end of the useful life of the battery in his car.

I also wondered if there was more to this than the article, it does seem to be one sided in the reporting.

Regarding the Merc, a failed battery makes it undriveable (going into a permanent limp mode) whereas the Prius just gives decreased performance and economy, but looking at the Prius forums, the battery packs seem to be very reliable and by all accounts, many seem to last up to and beyond 300k. Cost for replacement seems to be (in the UK) around £2k at last years prices. Not cheap but I guess if one can be obtained from a damaged car, it might make it easier to swallow.

Like yourself, I'd really research anything I intend to buy if it were an EV or Hybrid. For the meantime I'm sticking to normal internal combustion engines, as I'm only doing around 5k per annum, and with the hopeful addition of a pushbike once the wintwer is over, that might decrease further still.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Butch