Jump to content

Wifey's widows pension when i ''Pop me clogs''- Anyone have any knowledge/experiences ?


Pumpuynarak

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Here is some info i found which i believe may contradict your statement but i could be wrong lol........

 

"(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected."

 

If a Thai national subject to UK tax did not receive the personal allowance that nationals of the UK are entitled. The Thai national UK tax would be more burdensome.

 

In addition from the HMRC Thailand is on the following list 

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm10340

It does not contradict what I said, it is exactly what I said! 

That is a quote from the UK / Thailand double tax convention. 

Under UK domestic legislation wifey is not entitled to a personal allowance. However, that clause in the convention trumps domestic legislation and gives her the right to the allowance. 

To claim it, she has to complete Form R43. 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Bazle said:

It does not contradict what I said, it is exactly what I said! 

That is a quote from the UK / Thailand double tax convention. 

Under UK domestic legislation wifey is not entitled to a personal allowance. However, that clause in the convention trumps domestic legislation and gives her the right to the allowance. 

To claim it, she has to complete Form R43. 

Confusion reigns.....................well for me it does lol. Now where would i get Form R43 from and i take it that wifey would need to submit the form at the time of completing her widows pension claim from my company pension provider.

Now does she need to send it to my company pension provider or the HMRC ?

Thanks for your help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Confusion reigns.....................well for me it does lol. Now where would i get Form R43 from and i take it that wifey would need to submit the form at the time of completing her widows pension claim from my company pension provider.

Now does she need to send it to my company pension provider or the HMRC ?

Thanks for your help.

You can print off the form from the link I gave before. 

It has to get to HMRC. 

However, I guess she could send it to the pension provider requesting that they send it on to HMRC when she claims the pension. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Confusion reigns.....................well for me it does lol. Now where would i get Form R43 from and i take it that wifey would need to submit the form at the time of completing her widows pension claim from my company pension provider.

Now does she need to send it to my company pension provider or the HMRC ?

Thanks for your help.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-claim-to-personal-allowances-and-tax-repayment-by-an-individual-not-resident-in-the-uk-r43

Also guidelines on how to complete the R34 form. 🤗

Edited by KhunDon
  • Thanks 1
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Bazle said:

You can print off the form from the link I gave before. 

It has to get to HMRC. 

However, I guess she could send it to the pension provider requesting that they send it on to HMRC when she claims the pension. 

 

14 hours ago, KhunDon said:

Thanks guys. HTF do they expect a foreign national to be able to navigate that form and procedure ? i'm having problems lol 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/13/2023 at 8:38 PM, Krapow said:

I only have one main Pension, my Local Government Pension Scheme one, where i have worked for the past 15 years and continue to work bar a big lottery win :default_biggrin:. I had a couple of other small ones, but got them amalgamated into this one.

My wife's name is on the Death in Service, and Survivors Benefits Pension, Death Grants when i die whenever, via Expression of Wishes form.

As far as i'm aware, apart from a death in service which is quite a big lump and smaller yearly pension, Death Grant if i die under 75, when i die she'll get  -

Your spouse, civil partner or eligible cohabiting partner will receive part of your pension. It will be paid for the rest of their life. Generally, this is:

  • 30.625% of the pension you built up from April 2014
  • 37.50% of the pension you built up between April 2008 and March 2014
  • 50% of the pension you built up before April 2008.

I wasn't aware of the age thing, Sa's 11 years younger. 

Think i'll call them on Monday to clarify a few things, age, tax, if she then moves back to Thailand which would be a strong possibility if we weren't already living there etc.

I have 3 properties as well, which would go to  both my girls, so they'll be fine, but i don't plan on dying anytime soon, i have Manta Rays and Whale Sharks to get to know first.

Edit - Also, hope you're just being prudent @Pumpuynarak, i know you had a few health issues, but hope you're okay. 

Did a Pension's seminar last week, had a call back just now where i checked out a couple of things mentioned above.

As far as the age thing, think Sa's okay for my LGPS as she's only 11 years younger -

Hi D****,

 Further to our call I’ve found the following information in relation to your wife - If the spouse or partner is more than 12 years younger than the deceased, the spouse or partner's pension will be reduced by 2.5% for every year above the 12 years, to a maximum of 50%.- so I think you’ve been lucky considering she is 11 years younger.

Also, you guys will probably know this, i asked about living abroad and Pensions, my LGPS one is okay, the State one does or doesn't give yearly increases if living in Thailand? 

If you are retiring abroad, you can continue to receive your UK State Pension. You can get pension increases yearly if you live in a European Economic Area (EEA) country or a country which has a social security agreement with the UK.- I’m not sure if Thailand is one of these countries.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Krapow said:

Did a Pension's seminar last week, had a call back just now where i checked out a couple of things mentioned above.

As far as the age thing, think Sa's okay for my LGPS as she's only 11 years younger -

Hi D****,

 Further to our call I’ve found the following information in relation to your wife - If the spouse or partner is more than 12 years younger than the deceased, the spouse or partner's pension will be reduced by 2.5% for every year above the 12 years, to a maximum of 50%.- so I think you’ve been lucky considering she is 11 years younger.

Also, you guys will probably know this, i asked about living abroad and Pensions, my LGPS one is okay, the State one does or doesn't give yearly increases if living in Thailand? 

If you are retiring abroad, you can continue to receive your UK State Pension. You can get pension increases yearly if you live in a European Economic Area (EEA) country or a country which has a social security agreement with the UK.- I’m not sure if Thailand is one of these countries.

Philippines has a social Security agreement, Thailand does not. Thailand has been approached by the UK government previously, but no dialogue has taken place.

  • Like 1
  • Great Info 1
  • Thumbs Up 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Horizondave said:

Philippines has a social Security agreement, Thailand does not. Thailand has been approached by the UK government previously, but no dialogue has taken place.

That’s piss poor really and I’ve no reason to doubt you. There is no detriment to dialogue and in some ways it would benefit expats and their thai spouses who also benefit from a uk pension and possibly the thai economy as any extra income maybe spent in Thailand. TiT

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Krapow said:

Did a Pension's seminar last week, had a call back just now where i checked out a couple of things mentioned above.

As far as the age thing, think Sa's okay for my LGPS as she's only 11 years younger -

Hi D****,

 Further to our call I’ve found the following information in relation to your wife - If the spouse or partner is more than 12 years younger than the deceased, the spouse or partner's pension will be reduced by 2.5% for every year above the 12 years, to a maximum of 50%.- so I think you’ve been lucky considering she is 11 years younger.

Also, you guys will probably know this, i asked about living abroad and Pensions, my LGPS one is okay, the State one does or doesn't give yearly increases if living in Thailand? 

If you are retiring abroad, you can continue to receive your UK State Pension. You can get pension increases yearly if you live in a European Economic Area (EEA) country or a country which has a social security agreement with the UK.- I’m not sure if Thailand is one of these countries.

I can understand the reasoning behind such conditions as in cases such as mine where wifey is 31 years younger than me the pension scheme funds take a huge battering, wifey is one lucky lady to not have any reductions and she gets 1-3% increases every year !!!

No wonder why she is still here taking fantastic care of me :default_458:

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, AJSP said:

That’s piss poor really and I’ve no reason to doubt you. There is no detriment to dialogue and in some ways it would benefit expats and their thai spouses who also benefit from a uk pension and possibly the thai economy as any extra income maybe spent in Thailand. TiT

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

  • Great Info 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I ever move back to Thailand I believe I will still be able to get an indexed linked pension.  I have a daughter living in the Philippines, I may be able to use her address to ensure my UK pension is index linked. Now, I do go to the Philippines but the main issue  is 'where do you receive your pension'. If it had to be paid in the country of the address you give the UK  Government (i.e. Philippines), then it might not be worth it but if you live abroad (address in an acceptable country) then you can have it paid into that country's bank account or into your bank in the UK as per the Government information:

Bank accounts your pension can be paid into

Your State Pension can be paid into:

  • a bank in the country you’re living in
  • a bank or building society in the UK

You can use:

  • an account in your name
  • a joint account
  • someone else’s account - if you have their permission and keep to the terms and conditions of the account
  • Great Info 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Horizondave said:

If I ever move back to Thailand I believe I will still be able to get an indexed linked pension.  I have a daughter living in the Philippines, I may be able to use her address to ensure my UK pension is index linked. Now, I do go to the Philippines but the main issue  is 'where do you receive your pension'. If it had to be paid in the country of the address you give the UK  Government (i.e. Philippines), then it might not be worth it but if you live abroad (address in an acceptable country) then you can have it paid into that country's bank account or into your bank in the UK as per the Government information:

Bank accounts your pension can be paid into

Your State Pension can be paid into:

  • a bank in the country you’re living in
  • a bank or building society in the UK

You can use:

  • an account in your name
  • a joint account
  • someone else’s account - if you have their permission and keep to the terms and conditions of the account

Yeah, it's probably worth the risk if you can do it quietly so as not to attract any attention. It seems that DWP are unlikely to have you sent to jail, the very worst that can happen is a £5K fine, but for a first offence it would probably be much less than that. Also the state pension is non-sanctionable to they can't stop or reduce it no matter what you do. I honestly thought the penalties were far more draconian than that. Hmm, it may be time to find myself a Pinay mia noi, lol.

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud

 

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Toy Boy said:

Yeah, it's probably worth the risk if you can do it quietly so as not to attract any attention. It seems that DWP are unlikely to have you sent to jail, the very worst that can happen is a £5K fine, but for a first offence it would probably be much less than that. Also the state pension is non-sanctionable to they can't stop or reduce it no matter what you do. I honestly thought the penalties were far more draconian than that. Hmm, it may be time to find myself a Pinay mia noi, lol.

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud

 

I inadvertently failed to inform them of my residence in Thailand for approx 1 year so when i finally informed them they fined me £50 and stopped my pension until i returned the signed agreement to repay all the monthly increases i incorrectly received plus the £50 fine, bastards lol

  • Great Info 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My wife's friend's husband passed away a few months ago (I only met him 3 or 4 times). He had transferred out a UK private pension under QROPS. I have done the same and partly to make the transfer to my wife easier if/when i die.

The company is momentum who seem to be mainly based in malta but with a branch in gibraltar. They are not easy to deal with.

The current issue in a so far complicated procedure to get the funds (they prefer the investment is continued) is they do not accept the certification of her passport as a true copy of the original (plus the photo being a true likeness - which means she has to be present while the certifying is being done). It seems due to anti-money laundering rules and/or the Thai way of authorising notarys they cannot accept the certification. However, instead of directly answering proposals on how the passport can be certified they just reply by stating their original objection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zambo said:

My wife's friend's husband passed away a few months ago (I only met him 3 or 4 times). He had transferred out a UK private pension under QROPS. I have done the same and partly to make the transfer to my wife easier if/when i die.

The company is momentum who seem to be mainly based in malta but with a branch in gibraltar. They are not easy to deal with.

The current issue in a so far complicated procedure to get the funds (they prefer the investment is continued) is they do not accept the certification of her passport as a true copy of the original (plus the photo being a true likeness - which means she has to be present while the certifying is being done). It seems due to anti-money laundering rules and/or the Thai way of authorising notarys they cannot accept the certification. However, instead of directly answering proposals on how the passport can be certified they just reply by stating their original objection.

Sounds like you have hit the ''nail on the head'' with your ''they prefer the investment is continued'', bastards imo

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
8 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Update guys........

I called HMRC yesterday and eventually after 40 mins got put through to a ''specialist'' and i posed the following questions to him -

* As my wife is a Thailand national residing in Thailand will she be liable to income tax on her private widows pension ?

Reply - Yes

* Will she receive the personal allowance before taxation ?

Reply - Yes

Now i then should have asked him if they automatically give her the personal allowance or does she have to claim it but i forgot 🙄 so i'll be calling them again next week lol

From what the guy told me to justify his replies was that under the dual taxation arrangement between Thailand and the UK that would be the case. 

So i did a few calculations and if i pop me clogs tomorrow based on the info from the HRMC specialist and the current Baht/Pound exchange rate wifey will receive 92000 per month plus yearly increases for the rest of her days.

She's happy:default_party-smiley-048:  and so am i that i've taken real good care of her when i'm gone.

Well done mate. Always best to sort things out for when we are gone, saves the hassle of loved ones trying to do it from Thailand, especially if they aren’t familiar with the systems. 👍

My wife and I have discussed what she’d do if I popped off. As we have a son here in full time education she wants to stay here at least until he’s through University (that’s if he goes to uni) then she would go back to Thailand for most of the year and return to the UK for a few months each year.
That will give her a UK address, as she’s now the legal owner of our home along with our son, plus other properties, so it’ll entitle her to any yearly increases in UK State pensions, but more importantly, access to the NHS system, because she’s a British National as well.

She’s never worked in the UK, mainly because she’s never needed to, because of family money, but ever since we married, 23+ years ago and when she got British Citizenship, I’ve always insisted that she pays NI voluntary contributions, which she has without fail. Also, my company pension provides a very good spousal pension if I pop my clogs. Even then, She won’t really need it and will probably stick it into a savings account we set up 13 years ago for our son.

We tend to not think about what tomorrow brings, until tomorrow is here and then it’s to late. Best to get it sorted now and avoid the hassle later.👍

  • Like 3
  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Stillearly said:

@Pumpuynarak what about State pension , will she be entitled to a widow's pension? 

Nope

 

17 hours ago, Derek Dangleberries said:

Well done @Pumpuynarak for thinking ahead and taking care !!

👍

15 hours ago, KhunDon said:

Well done mate. Always best to sort things out for when we are gone, saves the hassle of loved ones trying to do it from Thailand, especially if they aren’t familiar with the systems. 👍

BINGO, HTF would she sort all of this out ? I've done every thing possible to make sure its all sorted, i've got a mate who lives 10 mins away from our gaff who is considerably younger than me (59yo) so he should'nt pre-decease me and he is going to help wifey submit the forms, make any phone calls to the UK etc

The reality is guys WE need to make claiming their pension or monies in our UK bank accounts as easy and stress free as possible, i really don't think wifey would be able to sort it all out without my forward planning and mate to help her.

She's been a fabulous wifey for 17 years and since my health issues of the last couple of years she once again has proved her worth, love her to bits.

  • Like 3
  • Great Info 1
  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Update guys....

I called HMRC again yesterday and got put through to a specialist who confirmed wifey will need to claim the personal allowance EACH YEAR using form R43, not an easy task for a Thai national but my mate will help her. 

Many thanks to BM Bazle for his help on this matter, much appreciated mate :default_good:

Wifey will need to complete Form R43 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143859/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

Edited by Pumpuynarak
  • Like 1
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Update guys....

I called HMRC again yesterday and got put through to a specialist who confirmed wifey will need to claim the personal allowance EACH YEAR using form R43, not an easy task for a Thai national but my mate will help her. 

Many thanks to BM Bazle for his help on this matter, much appreciated mate :default_good:

Wifey will need to complete Form R43 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1143859/R43_Manual__2023.pdf

I don't know if this has been discussed before. It was first mentioned somewhere on here by @tommy dee .I'm sorry if I'm regurgitating old news but I am using this company for sorting out all the documentation for registering my death in UK and funeral. Even if you have seen it before, maybe it will interest others.

 

image_6483441 (1).JPG

Edited by Derek Dangleberries
  • Great Info 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
×
×
  • Create New...