Black History Week and Convergence Past/Current Event Time Warp

[CalEden]

One thing that is mentioned in the 8th Infantry Divisions history is the battle of the Hurtgen forest. I knew nothing and maybe never heard about the Hurtgen Forest much less the battle. I did some brief research and plan to do more. 

 

"Battle of Hürtgen Forest

 

The Battle of Hürtgen Forest (German: Schlacht im Hürtgenwald) was a series of fierce battles fought from 19 September to 16 December 1944, between American and German forces on the Western Front during World War II, in the Hürtgen Forest, a 140 km² (54 sq mi) area about 5 km (3.1 mi) east of the Belgian–German border.^[1] It was the longest battle on German ground during World War II and is the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought.^[7]

The U.S. commanders' initial goal was to pin down German forces in the area to keep them from reinforcing the front lines farther north in the Battle of Aachen, where the US forces were fighting against the Siegfried Line network of fortified industrial towns and villages speckled with pillboxes, tank traps, and minefields. A secondary objective may have been to outflank the front line.^{[citation needed]} The Americans' initial tactical objectives were to take Schmidt and clear Monschau. In a second phase the Allies wanted to advance to the Rur River as part of Operation Queen.

Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model intended to bring the Allied thrust to a standstill. While he interfered less in the day-to-day movements of units than at the Battle of Arnhem, he still kept himself fully informed on the situation, slowing the Allies' progress, inflicting heavy casualties, and taking full advantage of the fortifications the Germans called the Westwall, better known to the Allies as the Siegfried Line. The Hürtgen Forest cost the U.S. First Army at least 33,000 killed and wounded, including both combat and non-combat losses, with upper estimate at 55,000; German casualties were 28,000. The city of Aachen in the north eventually fell on 22 October at high cost to the U.S. Ninth Army, but they failed to cross the Rur or wrest control of its dams from the Germans. The battle was so costly that it has been described as an Allied "defeat of the first magnitude," with specific credit given to Model.^{[8][9]: 391}

The Germans fiercely defended the area because it served as a staging area for the 1944 winter offensive Wacht am Rhein (known in English-speaking countries as the Battle of the Bulge), and because the mountains commanded access to the Rur Dam^{[notes 3]} at the head of the Rur Reservoir (Rurstausee). The Allies failed to capture the area after several heavy setbacks, and the Germans successfully held the region until they launched their last-ditch offensive into the Ardennes.^[2][10] This was launched on 16 December and ended the Hürtgen offensive.^[1] The Battle of the Bulge gained widespread press and public attention, leaving the battle of Hürtgen Forest less well remembered.

The overall cost of the Siegfried Line Campaign in American personnel was close to 140,000.^[11]"

The Hurtgen Forest was a very dense roadless forest where the usage of tanks was very limited and because of the dense tree canopy air power was limited. 

My father told me that Germans were well dug in had all their firing lines preset and ranged in. Because of this the Germans dictated the US offensive positions.

The Germans set the artillery shells to explode in the tree tops above them, raining metal and wood shrapnel on them.  Wood shrapnel was difficult for the medics/doctors to find and remove.  They had to dig their fox holes deeper and to cover with tree limbs.

During the day you stayed in your fox hole hunkered down. Everything was done below ground level if you wanted to survive, even shitting. The Germans snipers were watching, and they were particularly good. Nighttime was the only time you could move about. 

I don't know when this happened. An artillery shell exploded in his vicinity and a piece of shrapnel pierced his webbed army belt burning his side. He never went to the medic.

 

 

 

 

 

[CalEden]

I don't know much more than sometime during the war my dad's unit (I assume the 13th Infantry towards the end of war in Northern Germany) was under the Command of the British Field Marshal Montgomery. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by CalEden

[Mr. Smooth]

What an incredible thread! The artifacts from that time, the stories, the newspaper clippings. When I saw the newspaper  photo of Koln (Cologne), I was reminded that almost exactly 40 years after that photo was taken, as a young PFC, I was standing in the square right in front of that magnificent cathedral for New Years Eve, 1984. What transpired then, a celebration of the New Year, with joyous, and drunk, people from not only Germany, but from all over the world, stood in sharp contrast to that photo in the paper.

And remembering that now in 2022, almost the same amount of time has passed since I stood there. The blink of an eye.

You've got yourself some priceless historical heirlooms from WW II, that serve as a reminder of an earlier age, about as foreign to most people living today as I assume the Civil War was to those young people living then. They need to be preserved for future generations yet to be born to know what happened then and for those who served and fought, and died, with gallantry and honor.

A very appreciative thank you for sharing an important part of your families history, and of your father's heroism.

[CalEden]

7 hours ago, Mr. Smooth said:

What an incredible thread! The artifacts from that time, the stories, the newspaper clippings. When I saw the newspaper  photo of Koln (Cologne), I was reminded that almost exactly 40 years after that photo was taken, as a young PFC, I was standing in the square right in front of that magnificent cathedral for New Years Eve, 1984. What transpired then, a celebration of the New Year, with joyous, and drunk, people from not only Germany, but from all over the world, stood in sharp contrast to that photo in the paper.

And remembering that now in 2022, almost the same amount of time has passed since I stood there. The blink of an eye.

You've got yourself some priceless historical heirlooms from WW II, that serve as a reminder of an earlier age, about as foreign to most people living today as I assume the Civil War was to those young people living then. They need to be preserved for future generations yet to be born to know what happened then and for those who served and fought, and died, with gallantry and honor.

A very appreciative thank you for sharing an important part of your families history, and of your father's heroism.

I have visited Koln several times and always stay at the Hilton (Lifetime Diamond) the next street over from the giant Cathedral. Until recently I had not viewed that newspaper clipping. What a stark contrast. That war time photo is a famous photograph and can be found online. 

The Cathedral is the largest in Europe. The allies used it as a navigational landmark for bombing raids etc.

Back to my visits there are some nice FKK clubs in Koln. My favorite I can't find the card, is like a country club with playboy mansion facilities without the classic mansion. Both indoor and outdoor. I go there and spend several hours. I forgot the name of it. I have the business card someplace.

This is another FKK Club in Koln. It's pretty good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by CalEden

[Mr. Smooth]

5 minutes ago, CalEden said:

I have visited Koln several times and always stay at the Hilton (Lifetime Diamond) the next street over from the giant Cathedral. Until recently I had not viewed that newspaper clipping. What a stark contrast. That war time photo is a famous photograph and can be found online. 

The Cathedral is the largest in Europe. The allies used it as a navigational landmark for bombing raids etc.

Back to my visits there are some nice FKK clubs in Koln. My favorite I can't find the card, is like a country club with playboy mansion facilities without the classic mansion. Both indoor and outdoor. I go there and spend several hours. I forgot the name of it. I have the business card someplace.

This is another FKK Club in Koln. It's pretty good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dusseldorf, the next big city stop on the train was my favorite city to spend a weekend. Tons of clubs, bars, restaurants in the old town along the Rhein River. But just a block or so inland of the train station, was their version of Nurnburg's Wall, a red light district about a block long, only pedestrian traffic, and the ladies would both hang outside along the wall in the midst of negotions or in the open window sills, the neon of the red lamps inside the room illuminating a reddish glow onto the street.

I'd love to return one day for a 3 or 4 day visit. Some great memories for me there back when I was 20, 21 years old.

[CalEden]

Again, I do not know when and where this occurred: My father had been on the front for over 30 days.  His unit was relieved and moved to the rear. They had to shower in mass and to throw their clothes away at the entrance to the showers. They would be given new clothes after the shower. This was his first shower/bath since arriving on the front over 30 days. Immediately after showering they had to pass through a de-licing station, which DDT powder was sprayed on them from head to toe.  Off to get fresh clothes to find out there was none, they had run out of clothes.  They had to go to the pile of discarded dirty clothes and find clothes that fit them. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by CalEden

[CalEden]

 

Ironic

 

 

[Golfingboy]

@CalEden Don’t know if you just caught 60 Minutes. Was a very interesting piece on how Holocaust survivors record a bunch of answers to questions about their war experience. Then once they have passed, a student or anyone interested can talk to them via laptop or conference, through the use of AI. If the question is similar enough to one that was recorded, it is answered, if not, the now-deceased senior responds with “I can’t comment on that”. 
 

Fascinating stuff I thought, reminded me of a scene between James Cromwell and Will Smith in “I, Robot”

 

[tommy dee]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:25 AM, CalEden said:

One thing that is mentioned in the 8th Infantry Divisions history is the battle of the Hurtgen forest. I knew nothing and maybe never heard about the Hurtgen Forest much less the battle. I did some brief research and plan to do more. 

 

"Battle of Hürtgen Forest

 

The Battle of Hürtgen Forest (German: Schlacht im Hürtgenwald) was a series of fierce battles fought from 19 September to 16 December 1944, between American and German forces on the Western Front during World War II, in the Hürtgen Forest, a 140 km² (54 sq mi) area about 5 km (3.1 mi) east of the Belgian–German border.^[1] It was the longest battle on German ground during World War II and is the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought.^[7]

The U.S. commanders' initial goal was to pin down German forces in the area to keep them from reinforcing the front lines farther north in the Battle of Aachen, where the US forces were fighting against the Siegfried Line network of fortified industrial towns and villages speckled with pillboxes, tank traps, and minefields. A secondary objective may have been to outflank the front line.^{[citation needed]} The Americans' initial tactical objectives were to take Schmidt and clear Monschau. In a second phase the Allies wanted to advance to the Rur River as part of Operation Queen.

Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model intended to bring the Allied thrust to a standstill. While he interfered less in the day-to-day movements of units than at the Battle of Arnhem, he still kept himself fully informed on the situation, slowing the Allies' progress, inflicting heavy casualties, and taking full advantage of the fortifications the Germans called the Westwall, better known to the Allies as the Siegfried Line. The Hürtgen Forest cost the U.S. First Army at least 33,000 killed and wounded, including both combat and non-combat losses, with upper estimate at 55,000; German casualties were 28,000. The city of Aachen in the north eventually fell on 22 October at high cost to the U.S. Ninth Army, but they failed to cross the Rur or wrest control of its dams from the Germans. The battle was so costly that it has been described as an Allied "defeat of the first magnitude," with specific credit given to Model.^{[8][9]: 391}

The Germans fiercely defended the area because it served as a staging area for the 1944 winter offensive Wacht am Rhein (known in English-speaking countries as the Battle of the Bulge), and because the mountains commanded access to the Rur Dam^{[notes 3]} at the head of the Rur Reservoir (Rurstausee). The Allies failed to capture the area after several heavy setbacks, and the Germans successfully held the region until they launched their last-ditch offensive into the Ardennes.^[2][10] This was launched on 16 December and ended the Hürtgen offensive.^[1] The Battle of the Bulge gained widespread press and public attention, leaving the battle of Hürtgen Forest less well remembered.

The overall cost of the Siegfried Line Campaign in American personnel was close to 140,000.^[11]"

The Hurtgen Forest was a very dense roadless forest where the usage of tanks was very limited and because of the dense tree canopy air power was limited. 

My father told me that Germans were well dug in had all their firing lines preset and ranged in. Because of this the Germans dictated the US offensive positions.

The Germans set the artillery shells to explode in the tree tops above them, raining metal and wood shrapnel on them.  Wood shrapnel was difficult for the medics/doctors to find and remove.  They had to dig their fox holes deeper and to cover with tree limbs.

During the day you stayed in your fox hole hunkered down. Everything was done below ground level if you wanted to survive, even shitting. The Germans snipers were watching, and they were particularly good. Nighttime was the only time you could move about. 

I don't know when this happened. An artillery shell exploded in his vicinity and a piece of shrapnel pierced his webbed army belt burning his side. He never went to the medic.

 

 

 

 

 

by then the Krauts were out of men, and instead raided all the local villages in that area, the Eifel, taking all lads ver about 14.  most die withing days.  i can remember in the 70s going to villages and it pointed out that there were no men of this to that age, and why.  I also knew a gerry farmer who hid int he hay every time they came looking for him to join.  the Eifel area took it realy badly.,  byt then did very well from the rich in Koeln, who cam eout to trade furs and jewelry for food.  which is why the word Bauer ( farmer) is not used in a pleasant way in Koeln.  ( the trade rate wasnt that cool).  but most of the old farmer wives had ermine and fur for church.  those photos of Koeln show the cathedral which was ordered to be off limits for bombers by churchill, as a reminder that we could do a better job than the jerry did in Coventry btw.  that apart, until you reached the outer areas fo the city, all was pretty much obliterated

[CalEden]

16 hours ago, Golfingboy said:

@CalEden Don’t know if you just caught 60 Minutes. Was a very interesting piece on how Holocaust survivors record a bunch of answers to questions about their war experience. Then once they have passed, a student or anyone interested can talk to them via laptop or conference, through the use of AI. If the question is similar enough to one that was recorded, it is answered, if not, the now-deceased senior responds with “I can’t comment on that”. 
 

Fascinating stuff I thought, reminded me of a scene between James Cromwell and Will Smith in “I, Robot”

 

Remarkably interesting, I'll have to go to on demand to watch.

There are a lot of YouTube videos of veterans and their War experiences. Some touching, some highly informative and fascinating.

[CalEden]

14 hours ago, tommy dee said:

by then the Krauts were out of men, and instead raided all the local villages in that area, the Eifel, taking all lads ver about 14.  most die withing days.  i can remember in the 70s going to villages and it pointed out that there were no men of this to that age, and why.  I also knew a gerry farmer who hid int he hay every time they came looking for him to join.  the Eifel area took it realy badly.,  byt then did very well from the rich in Koeln, who cam eout to trade furs and jewelry for food.  which is why the word Bauer ( farmer) is not used in a pleasant way in Koeln.  ( the trade rate wasnt that cool).  but most of the old farmer wives had ermine and fur for church.  those photos of Koeln show the cathedral which was ordered to be off limits for bombers by churchill, as a reminder that we could do a better job than the jerry did in Coventry btw.  that apart, until you reached the outer areas fo the city, all was pretty much obliterated

 

On 3/1/2022 at 5:21 PM, CalEden said:

 

This is a newspaper clipping of War time Koln. My dad indicated in ink where the Germans are bombed bridge other side of the Rhine. On the right side of the middle photo, he indicates where his unit was bivouac in the basement of city hall.

There's an interesting story of what they found in the basement of city hall to be posted later. I'll also post anything I find that may be interesting.  

After the Hurtgen Forest Battle my father's unit participated in the Battle for Kolin. See newspaper clipping in quote above. Shows the Cathedral and Koln in ruins.