Living Will - DNR here in Thailand

[Pumpuynarak]

Not wishing to be morbid just realistic. Anyone have any experiences of effecting living wills/DNR procedures here in Thailand ? I would appreciate any info on the subject TIA

[forcebwithu]

I had both a Last Will and Testament and a Living Will drawn up several years ago. Good news, neither have been used yet. 

Anything specific you're interested in knowing?

[Pumpuynarak]

1 hour ago, forcebwithu said:

I had both a Last Will and Testament and a Living Will drawn up several years ago. Good news, neither have been used yet. 

Anything specific you're interested in knowing?

How much dosh and anything i particularly need to know before seeing a lawyer ? What arrangements have you planned to ensure your wishes are complied with ?    

[forcebwithu]

51 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

How much dosh and anything i particularly need to know before seeing a lawyer ? What arrangements have you planned to ensure your wishes are complied with ?    

It was 5K for each. Unfortunately with this particular Pattaya based law firm I found the farang manager to be less than professional in my dealings with him, so can not in good conscious recommend the firm.

It was also after the fact I realized it wasn't in my best interest to have the same law firm named as Executor of the Will. In hindsight I should have named a friend as Executor. The problem with doing that is if I out live the friend I would need to amend my Will.

My lady is named on the Living Will to make the decision to pull the plug, but knowing chances are she'd never be able to do it I also included two close friends so the burden wouldn't fall entirely on her shoulders.

[Pumpuynarak]

1 hour ago, forcebwithu said:

It was 5K for each. Unfortunately with this particular Pattaya based law firm I found the farang manager to be less than professional in my dealings with him, so can not in good conscious recommend the firm.

It was also after the fact I realized it wasn't in my best interest to have the same law firm named as Executor of the Will. In hindsight I should have named a friend as Executor. The problem with doing that is if I out live the friend I would need to amend my Will.

My lady is named on the Living Will to make the decision to pull the plug, but knowing chances are she'd never be able to do it I also included two close friends so the burden wouldn't fall entirely on her shoulders.

Sensible man FBWY, thanks.

[Krapow]

Sorry for the slight TF, but I was always led to believe the best law firm in Pattaya area was owned/run by a Thai lady by the name of Chollada, who's Office was on Soi 6, and also led to believe she was quite 'well connected' shall we say, but in a good way, her and her firm's Integrity were never in question.

I used her when I bought my little condo, I also know others who had used her and/or her firm for various legal matters, and there was always good feedback.

Then I think I read something quite recent that her firm had closed or moved. Can anyone shed any light on it? I currently rent my place, but would sell it should the opportunity arise, and always though I'd go to her office for that or any other Thai legal matter.

Again Pump, sorry about the slight TF, but from reading Force's post, getting the right legal advice and firm makes all the difference.

[ChiFlyer]

I took a different approach because we bought a house. At that time I felt that we had significant enough Thai assets in play that I needed to protect both of us with wills. I did the following.

• I married my LLLLLT GF (7 years). I believe this gives her the ability to pull a useless life support plug. She is aware of my wishes with regard to this and she can be cold blooded when need be.
• I fired our current Thai Lawyer and hired a new one. I was unhappy with the first lawyer's performance.
• I had two wills done by the new lawyer. One for her and one for me. In the unlikely event that she should pass before I do this protects me. The wills were done by a lawyer on the Dark Side who was recommended by some friends who had gone through a similar situation. I was very impressed with the new lawyer's firm's services, but they were not cheap. I paid 10,000 per will, but I have a very high degree of confidence that things were done right.
• On a side note, all Thai Wills must go through probate. This can be a lengthy and somewhat expensive process. I have heard that a timeline of 3 months and a cost of 50,000 are not unusual.
• I found out that my wife would not have access to my Bangkok Bank accounts, if something happened to me. I granted her POA on those accounts. 
• A problem was that in owning a house (actually a company owns the house) I (being a Farang) can not own more than 49% of the stock in said company. At the same time I am the only stock holder with voting rights. The wife is the recipient of my shares and voting rights when I pass, but I can not be the recipient of hers. We left those to her sister. Gotta trust somebody in the long run.
• Just as a note 85% of my assets are in US accounts. I have a US will that leaves these to my bloodline.

Complicated shit to say the least.

Edited August 2, 2023 by ChiFlyer

[Pumpuynarak]

17 hours ago, Krapow said:

who's Office was on Soi 6,

What a magnificent reason to go to the 6 🤣

[Pumpuynarak]

This just about sums my attitude to life. There's no way i'm spending my later years in a wheelchair in a vegetative state or confined to bed, i wanna be gone hence a living will.

Thanks for your helpful posts guys.

 

[Pumpuynarak]

I've got a local lawyer here in Korat that i'm gonna use, i've used her before albeit only for my POL certificates. She is fluent in English, reads and writes so has a great understanding of English.

Wifey's also going to use her to apply for her widows pension when i pop me clogs and then to complete the R43 form each year to claim the tax paid on her widows pension by way of the personal allowance.

[KWA]

11 hours ago, ChiFlyer said:

I found out that my wife would not have access to my Bangkok Bank accounts, if something happened to me. I granted her POA on those accounts.

I'm no expert, but from reading elsewhere a regular POA dies with you so she'll still have to wait to access your bank balances unless you make some other arrangement.

[biggles]

I don't know Thai law, but here in the Philippines an attorney advised me that you can apply for probate on your will while you are still alive. This cuts out the delay in processing after your death. 

Probate is just a process to verify the legality of the will. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by biggles

[Pumpuynarak]

53 minutes ago, KWA said:

I'm no expert, but from reading elsewhere a regular POA dies with you so she'll still have to wait to access your bank balances unless you make some other arrangement.

That is my understanding to but if the bank is not informed immediately of the account holders death money can be moved before notification and why bother informing them at all. That is exactly what my son did with his Nans account as he held POA.

[Yesitisdakid]

Magna Carta did my will and was fairly simple all my assets here in Thailand will go to my Exwife here in Thailand she will also deal with my body after it gets released by the embassy. She insisted in taking care of it and my will gives her that right as well. I have a bit of money in the US for my 2 kids. I have also told the kids that upon my death do not bother coming to Thailand whats the point really ? 

Tony told me that despite my having a will here for my Thai assets it will still take a fair amount of time before the courts here release the assets to the exwife. I figured as much as after all this is Thailand 

[tommy dee]

20 hours ago, ChiFlyer said:

I took a different approach because we bought a house. At that time I felt that we had significant enough Thai assets in play that I needed to protect both of us with wills. I did the following.

• I married my LLLLLT GF (7 years). I believe this gives her the ability to pull a useless life support plug. She is aware of my wishes with regard to this and she can be cold blooded when need be.
• I fired our current Thai Lawyer and hired a new one. I was unhappy with the first lawyer's performance.
• I had two wills done by the new lawyer. One for her and one for me. In the unlikely event that she should pass before I do this protects me. The wills were done by a lawyer on the Dark Side who was recommended by some friends who had gone through a similar situation. I was very impressed with the new lawyer's firm's services, but they were not cheap. I paid 10,000 per will, but I have a very high degree of confidence that things were done right.
• On a side note, all Thai Wills must go through probate. This can be a lengthy and somewhat expensive process. I have heard that a timeline of 3 months and a cost of 50,000 are not unusual.
• I found out that my wife would not have access to my Bangkok Bank accounts, if something happened to me. I granted her POA on those accounts. 
• A problem was that in owning a house (actually a company owns the house) I (being a Farang) can not own more than 49% of the stock in said company. At the same time I am the only stock holder with voting rights. The wife is the recipient of my shares and voting rights when I pass, but I can not be the recipient of hers. We left those to her sister. Gotta trust somebody in the long run.
• Just as a note 85% of my assets are in US accounts. I have a US will that leaves these to my bloodline.

Complicated shit to say the least.

then you were misled

 

here is  how it goes.  she can leave you her interest in the house.  yes all of it. BUT then the court will order you to divest yourself of that within, say, a year.  so essentially if she goes first, you find anothe thai to hold the shares OR sell the house

[Stillearly]

30 minutes ago, tommy dee said:

then you were misled

 

here is  how it goes.  she can leave you her interest in the house.  yes all of it. BUT then the court will order you to divest yourself of that within, say, a year.  so essentially if she goes first, you find anothe thai to hold the shares OR sell the house

From the post you quoted

"The wife is the recipient of my shares and voting rights when I pass, but I can not be the recipient of hers. We left those to her sister. Gotta trust somebody in the long run."

[ChiFlyer]

2 hours ago, tommy dee said:

then you were misled

 

here is  how it goes.  she can leave you her interest in the house.  yes all of it. BUT then the court will order you to divest yourself of that within, say, a year.  so essentially if she goes first, you find anothe thai to hold the shares OR sell the house

Good info for sure. It was the first lawyer that I fired who contributed to me being misled primarily by myself. If the wife's health starts to look problematic, I may revisit the will. For now, as long as I hold the voting rights, I am not too concerned. At 74 I am thinking that this will likely be my last house.

[ChiFlyer]

11 hours ago, KWA said:

I'm no expert, but from reading elsewhere a regular POA dies with you so she'll still have to wait to access your bank balances unless you make some other arrangement.

I was not aware of that. Thanks for the info.

[Derek Dangleberries]

On 8/3/2023 at 6:04 PM, Yesitisdakid said:

Tony told me that despite my having a will here for my Thai assets it will still take a fair amount of time before the courts here release the assets to the exwife. I figured as much as after all this is Thailand 

Did he say how much that process costs ? I was told about 50,000 Baht.

- In Thailand, my Condo is now in my Daughter's name and I have Userfruct. Therefore all that is not legally covered are my bank accounts which I only keep a month's living expenses in. 

- In UK everything now gets paid into a Joint Account with my eldest son so he gets everything automatically, he is my NOK too. From next month I will start saving about 500 quid a month in that account which will eventually become my medical self insurance when premiums become unmanageable. 

- I have now completed the process and paid for my own funeral in Thailand through Jeff Mitchell at Amar Repatriations which was recommended by @tommy dee on here and on YT. He also sorts out everything with the authorities here and will send my translated Death Certificate to UK. Together we have come up with a very good "information" sheet in Thai and English which I have laminated and have hung up in my room.

- For other insurances @tommy dee suggested somebody else but having dealt with them I have nothing good to say about them, so will leave it at that.

[Derek Dangleberries]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:08 AM, ChiFlyer said:

I found out that my wife would not have access to my Bangkok Bank accounts, if something happened to me. I granted her POA on those accounts. 

When I first read this, I went to a lawyer to ask about giving my daughter POA, but they said that The Will would still have to go through probate with the associated costs (50,000). This was the trigger for me to keep minimum in my Thai banks.

Please let me know what you were told. I can flip my decisions very easily !!!

[ChiFlyer]

5 hours ago, Derek Dangleberries said:

When I first read this, I went to a lawyer to ask about giving my daughter POA, but they said that The Will would still have to go through probate with the associated costs (50,000). This was the trigger for me to keep minimum in my Thai banks.

Please let me know what you were told. I can flip my decisions very easily !!!

All Thai wills must go through probate. 50,000 is the estimated cost that I was told as well and also that the process takes about 3 months.

Bangkok Bank informed me that I could not make my Thai Wife (yes legally married in Thailand) the beneficiary of my Thai bank accounts. One of the guys over at PA had previously told me that as well and I foolishly thought he was having a senior moment. No, I was. At that point I gave my Thai Wife signature authority on my bank accounts. She can act on my behalf if I go slowly and probably sneak some out early on in the probate process. 

I carry about 10% of my net value in my Thai bank accounts. This is probably significant to some and a pittance to others. I do this because I want my Thai wife to inherit these funds. My US family (two sons) is aware of this and have agreed not to challenge my Thai will. If one is leaving Thai funds to US family, I am under the impression that said family member(s) must be present at the Thai probate hearing.

Conversely, my US will leaves all of my US assets (entirely financial instruments) to my two sons. I have communicated that my wish is that this money should be used to enable quality education for my two grandchildren, but that they will need to make decisions about what is best. The Thai wife has agreed not to challenge this, nor could she says my US lawyer who wrote and holds my US will. Obviously, I can easily adjust percentages should the need arise.

I am still more than a little baffled about how a Thai Living Will and also a DNR work. I feel that I have addressed the first with the Thai wife having said signature authority. If I become a bedridden vegetable, I would like a DNR to be in place. The Thai wife is aware of this, but I think that runs contrary to her Buddhist faith. I tend to use the medical services of Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital. Someone told me I could affect a DNR through them. I need to get back to that.

Hope that helps a little. My head was swimming when I first started to try and understand all of this.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by ChiFlyer

[Derek Dangleberries]

58 minutes ago, ChiFlyer said:

Hope that helps a little.

Yes it does. Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail.

[Pumpuynarak]

8 hours ago, Derek Dangleberries said:

Yes it does. Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail.

Ditto

[Glasseye]

Working on mine now...Living will draft being reviewed by the lawyer, hope to have the last will in for review by the end of next week. Both of those services will be free with the plan I am on.

Following that I will be working on serveral other legal related things that they wil charge a fee for, but it will be a fraction of the cost from what I would have paid back in the U.S. (and probably much more trustworty).

[Glasseye]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:56 PM, ChiFlyer said:

All Thai wills must go through probate. 50,000 is the estimated cost that I was told as well and also that the process takes about 3 months.

Bangkok Bank informed me that I could not make my Thai Wife (yes legally married in Thailand) the beneficiary of my Thai bank accounts. One of the guys over at PA had previously told me that as well and I foolishly thought he was having a senior moment. No, I was. At that point I gave my Thai Wife signature authority on my bank accounts. She can act on my behalf if I go slowly and probably sneak some out early on in the probate process. 

I carry about 10% of my net value in my Thai bank accounts. This is probably significant to some and a pittance to others. I do this because I want my Thai wife to inherit these funds. My US family (two sons) is aware of this and have agreed not to challenge my Thai will. If one is leaving Thai funds to US family, I am under the impression that said family member(s) must be present at the Thai probate hearing.

Conversely, my US will leaves all of my US assets (entirely financial instruments) to my two sons. I have communicated that my wish is that this money should be used to enable quality education for my two grandchildren, but that they will need to make decisions about what is best. The Thai wife has agreed not to challenge this, nor could she says my US lawyer who wrote and holds my US will. Obviously, I can easily adjust percentages should the need arise.

I am still more than a little baffled about how a Thai Living Will and also a DNR work. I feel that I have addressed the first with the Thai wife having said signature authority. If I become a bedridden vegetable, I would like a DNR to be in place. The Thai wife is aware of this, but I think that runs contrary to her Buddhist faith. I tend to use the medical services of Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital. Someone told me I could affect a DNR through them. I need to get back to that.

Hope that helps a little. My head was swimming when I first started to try and understand all of this.

 

If you have the wills filed with a legal agency they should be notified of your condition. The agency would then contact the representatives at the the provider (typically a doctor, sometimes two of them) where you are being cared for. If you want to be extra covered I would have indiviual copies of the will filed with each hospital where you may likely go (I know can be impossible to predict).

Back in North Carolina you could file a living will with a program run by the Secratary of State, supposedly this was a protocol for having your wishes formally on file and the data accessable. 

There would be a meeting with your surrogate (family member identified, or legal rep.), two doctors, and your will document making the final joint decision to pull the plug.