Cheap finance and the move to EV

[KhunDon]

2 hours ago, Jambo said:

How the average family punter can afford a new electric car is beyond me.

Or new tires every 6 months.

 

 

We’ve had our electric car for over 2.5 years and  have done almost 50K miles in it.
We paid cash for the car when we bought it new.
I’ve only had to change the front tyres after 40k miles so far and the rears are good for a few more miles yet. 🤗

Come next May it’ll be 3 years old and we’re in the process of looking for a new model/manufacturer to purchase then, but it won’t be a Tesla. 🤗

Prices are starting to come down a bit, but we’ll probably go for a car that’s a bit bigger than the one we have now, with a bigger battery than the 64Kwh battery that’s in our present car, so that’ll probably mean we’ll be paying more money this time. 
Hopefully manufacturers will come up with a small family car with a decent size battery at a decent price, but at the moment they seem to be concentrating on larger SUV’s because that’s where the profits are. 
Chinese cars like the MG4 are getting there, with a reasonably low price for a decent sized battery, (270 miles on a full charge in the summer) that would probably suit family use and more are coming hopefully. 🤗
 

Ok, we’re not “average family punters”, but EV’s suit our lifestyle, as we can charge it at home on cheap electric, so it works out that the “fuel” costs around 2 pence per mile, compared to the high costs of petrol or diesel which is around 8 or 9 x that.
Obviously there is depreciation,insurance and service charges on top of that, but that applies to all cars. 
However, we still having a Diesel car sat on the drive doing bugger all, (with 13k miles on the clock) because I can’t get around to selling it. 😟

Edited December 11, 2023 by KhunDon

[Jambo]

4 hours ago, KhunDon said:

We’ve had our electric car for over 2.5 years and  have done almost 50K miles in it.
We paid cash for the car when we bought it new.
I’ve only had to change the front tyres after 40k miles so far and the rears are good for a few more miles yet. 🤗

Come next May it’ll be 3 years old and we’re in the process of looking for a new model/manufacturer to purchase then, but it won’t be a Tesla. 🤗

Prices are starting to come down a bit, but we’ll probably go for a car that’s a bit bigger than the one we have now, with a bigger battery than the 64Kwh battery that’s in our present car, so that’ll probably mean we’ll be paying more money this time. 
Hopefully manufacturers will come up with a small family car with a decent size battery at a decent price, but at the moment they seem to be concentrating on larger SUV’s because that’s where the profits are. 
Chinese cars like the MG4 are getting there, with a reasonably low price for a decent sized battery, (270 miles on a full charge in the summer) that would probably suit family use and more are coming hopefully. 🤗
 

Ok, we’re not “average family punters”, but EV’s suit our lifestyle, as we can charge it at home on cheap electric, so it works out that the “fuel” costs around 2 pence per mile, compared to the high costs of petrol or diesel which is around 8 or 9 x that.
Obviously there is depreciation,insurance and service charges on top of that, but that applies to all cars. 
However, we still having a Diesel car sat on the drive doing bugger all, (with 13k miles on the clock) because I can’t get around to selling it. 😟

The majority of car owners ARE family punters and the average cost of a new family saloon of a make you are not embarrassed to leave outside is around 30K.

I stand to be corrected but I am sure I read that depreciation on electric cars is very significantly higher.

I anticipate the UK will become like Cuba. Petrol cars 10 years old will be considered hardly run in. 

[Zeb]

10 hours ago, Jambo said:

How the average family punter can afford a new electric car is beyond me.

My MG4 entry level model came in about the same as a Toyota Corolla - so no comparison in my view. The BYD Dolphin is pretty good as well.

10 hours ago, Jambo said:

Or new tires every 6 months

Thats a new one for me. Had mine 3 months and any suggestion that new tyres will soon be needed is a real laugh.

Its really amazing what some people will believe - but up to them.

 

[Zeb]

3 hours ago, Jambo said:

I stand to be corrected but I am sure I read that depreciation on electric cars is very significantly higher.

Can you give some examples of this "very significantly higher" depreciation ?

 

[Butch]

16 hours ago, Zeb said:

Can you give some examples of this "very significantly higher" depreciation ?

 

Yes and No.

some models have a much less residual value in comparison to their ICE counterparts, Porsche being one such example. However, it's literally different for each manufacturer, Renault or Nissan for example, the EV's depreciate considerably less, so there's no definite trend or answer. Most biased websites and searches will err towards it being less, but that's the MSM agenda at the moment.

Truth is, dealers are avoiding secondhand EV's purely as a way of mitigating high repair costs when one comes in with a bollocksed sensor or two.

Early adopters of EV's are seeing their cars depreciate faster and having less Residual value, but that is counterbalanced by the cheaper running costs of the car during the duration of ownership. More modern EV's are depreciating less than their ICE counterparts due purely to higher demand.

what is relevant is that EV's are becoming, in many cases, horrifically expensive to insure for the following reasons:

Teslas have a single piece cast chassis at the rear, so any chassis damage is an immediate total loss as it can't be repaired. Same goes for any battery damage, regardless how small, due to the litigation in the event of a fire.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-fixes-expense/

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

however, I'd also argue that a damaged engine in an ICE car (ICE = Internal combusion engine) would have an equally expensive result, but in the event of an accident, on an ICE vehicle it's only part of the drivetrain / chassis / engine that gets damaged and they are all interchageable and almost modular, whereas on an EV they're not.

Basically, EV's haven't been around in society in big numbers long enough to get a true idea of figures, as it's more "trend driven" at the moment than it is "sales driven". EV Dealerships (secondhand) are becoming more commonplace in the UK, but are not as numerous as regular car dealerships, so data might be a bit skewed. That's not to say it is wrong, but maybe not as complete as it could be.

When the UK govt pushed diesel cars for a couple of years, residuals were high. 3 years later residuals had dropped through the floor.

So Yes and No, like many things in life.

 

[Butch]

17 hours ago, Zeb said:

My MG4 entry level model came in about the same as a Toyota Corolla - so no comparison in my view. The BYD Dolphin is pretty good as well.

 

MG are doing better finance deals than Toyota, are you talking cash price in the UK or elsewhere ?.

In the UK the MG4 SE is £26995 , the Corolla Icon is £30,225 but it's like comparing an apple to a cat. the MG4 is one of the cheapest EV's on the market, the corolla is not the cheapest family saloon on the market. You can't cherry pick a Corolla as it's not truly representative of the budget end of the new car saloon / sedan market.

I'd reply and say your MG4 is more expensive than an entry level Dacia Sandero, by almost double. Both 4 door saloons, both family cars, both entry level, both budget.

Sandero can be had on "carwow.com" for £13795.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Butch

[Butch]

**NOTE in the above post, I meant to say that both the MG4 and Dacia Sandero are both budget vehicles within their relevant categories of vehicles - both occupy roughly the same position within their markets, whereas Toyota doesn't.

 

Please don't assume I'm anti- EV. I'm not, far from it in fact.

Many EV's offer 4WD, Instant maximum power and torque delivery, low centre of gravity and relatively speaking , simplistic design features (battery-motors- power to wheels as opposed to engine-gearbox-drivetrain-axles-power to wheels)

we need to consider that despite one of the earliest cars ever being an EV, EV technology is still in its infancy when compared to that of ICE vehicle. The next 10 years will see a massive change in the Motor industry, possibly a mixture of hybrid / EV / Hydrogen powered vehicles as the ICE is replaced. Batteries will become more efficient, charging infrastructure better suited to purpose, and the problems that are being faced now, are not much different to the problems manufacturers of ICE vehicles faced in the early days of unreliable engines, weak drivetrains and poor build quality. Even "range anxiety" will become a thing of the past, as we used to carry a petrol can in the boot of our cars, EV owners maybe can use a small emergency battery giving 50 miles or so of range.

If EV manufacturers build in and engineer a decent life span for the cars they make, then that will be a massive leap forward. Modular systems for battery replacement being one.

A great deal of motor technology we see in cars today is derived from Formula one. sequential gearboxes, real time telemetry, brake regeneration, traction control systems and active suspension to name a few. As the tech develops it will most likely cross over.

the elephant in the room though is the massive environmental impact EV manufacture has on the planet. We have yet to fully understand the long term effects ( a point conveniently avoided by those extolling the virtues of the EV) , and many are blissfully unaware of the amount of dirt cheap, African child labour and damage done in mining lithium and cobalt, and the issues that those operations bring to the local environment, both in health and in displacement of communities.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Butch

[Zeb]

3 hours ago, Butch said:

If EV manufacturers build in and engineer a decent life span for the cars they make, then that will be a massive leap forward. Modular systems for battery replacement being one.

Already happening.

'Electric Viking' who reports regularly on EV's on YT says EV's including Tesla's used as taxi's in Beijing with 300-400,000 km plus on the clock.

Thats a "decent life span" by any means.

The "black mass" in EV batteries is valuable for recycling however the batteries last so long there are few currently available to recycle. 

Back to the original question though - 25-26000 pounds for a base MG4 or BYD Dolphin is not excessive and is comparable to an ICE purchase for an arguably better car.

My MG4 will outlast me, possibly by many years and depreciation is not an issue for me - nor is there much evidence of it being a widespread one.

There is a lot a stake for big name ICE manufacturers who have been caught napping by the Chinese. Some of them won't survive.

Not that it worries me on iota.

 

[Butch]

4 minutes ago, Zeb said:

Already happening.

'Electric Viking' who reports regularly on EV's on YT says EV's including Tesla's used as taxi's in Beijing with 300-400,000 km plus on the clock.

Thats a "decent life span" by any means.

The "black mass" in EV batteries is valuable for recycling however the batteries last so long there are few currently available to recycle. 

Back to the original question though - 25-26000 pounds for a base MG4 or BYD Dolphin is not excessive and is comparable to an ICE purchase for an arguably better car.

My MG4 will outlast me, possibly by many years and depreciation is not an issue for me - nor is there much evidence of it being a widespread one.

There is a lot a stake for big name ICE manufacturers who have been caught napping by the Chinese. Some of them won't survive.

Not that it worries me on iota.

 

Yes, but go to any major city , hop  into a taxi and there are Hyundai Stellas, Toyota Camrys and Mercedes W124's with over a million miles plus. That's before we get into the USA and the Crown Victoria.

I haven't been and watched Electric viking, but consider a high mileage EV is a much rarer sight than a high mileage ICE car, even when looked at as a percentage of numbers. 3-400k is not a decent life span in Taxi terms, but it is for a regular car and most probably more than most normal people will drive in 15 years in one car. Bear in mind a majority of EV's running around are younger than 8 years old.

It would be interesting to see comparable running costs from both.

however, this refers back to my earlier point in that EV's have not really been in mainstream use for long enough to offer a reasonably decent enough amount of data to compare. The battery tech will come along, there's no doubt at all about that, but at the moment, it just isn't there or affordable enough for the average buyer.

£26k will get you a higher spec equivalent ICE car than its counterpart EV, purely because EV's are more expensive out of the showroom. It's only "arguably better" depending upon your personal viewpoint.

For example, I can buy a top spec Dacia Duster for £26k with much higher equipment levels than any EV for the equivalent £26k . Will it outlast the EV?. No idea, but I'd expect a reasonable 10 years lifespan from both, with cheaper running costs for the EV overall.
 

I believe the big name manufacturers will end up sharing technology if the threat from Chinese manufacturing becomes too great. We may see a Tesla drivetrain mated to a BMW chassis with a Mercedes interior and GM body. A bit extreme but you get the idea.

[Zeb]

8 minutes ago, Butch said:

EV's have not really been in mainstream use for long enough to offer a reasonably decent enough amount of data to compare.

Yet that is exactly what is being done.

A lot a chasing down rabbit holes.

In the meantime time is running out for the legacy ICE manufacturers.

[Stillearly]

 

[KhunDon]

On 12/11/2023 at 3:03 PM, Jambo said:

The majority of car owners ARE family punters and the average cost of a new family saloon of a make you are not embarrassed to leave outside is around 30K.

I stand to be corrected but I am sure I read that depreciation on electric cars is very significantly higher.

I anticipate the UK will become like Cuba. Petrol cars 10 years old will be considered hardly run in. 

Yes depreciation has been a problem on EV’s. 
But only less than a year ago you could buy a new EV, run it for a year and sell it for almost what you paid for it, the same applied to some ICE cars as new car cars were difficult to find due to parts shortages, especially computer chips. 
Now, some high end EV’s like BMW and Mercedes are offering up to £35+ k discount as they need to shift stock prior to Christmas. 
Most new cars now are sold to company fleets and EV’s give the employees the best BIK benefits. 

Now, some second hand auctions are refusing to put EV’s through their auctions because they’re not making the reserve prices. 

Manufacturers need to shift their products to small, decently equipped EV’s around the £20-23k. Any legacy company that comes up with a reliable family sized EV with a decent range (250 miles) for that price, will do well IMHO. 

They also need to sort out the crap dealerships who don’t have a fucking clue on most repairs and think they can get away with charging several hundred £££‘s to diagnose a fault and palm customers off with expensive repairs that even aren’t needed. 
At the moment, most people have to wait months just to get their EV into a dealership workshop for diagnosis, then wait several weeks for parts to arrive. That’s even if they have mechanics trained to work on EV’s. 🤬
 

[Trip]

21 minutes ago, KhunDon said:

Yes depreciation has been a problem on EV’s. 
But only less than a year ago you could buy a new EV, run it for a year and sell it for almost what you paid for it, the same applied to some ICE cars as new car cars were difficult to find due to parts shortages, especially computer chips. 
Now, some high end EV’s like BMW and Mercedes are offering up to £35+ k discount as they need to shift stock prior to Christmas. 
Most new cars now are sold to company fleets and EV’s give the employees the best BIK benefits. 

Now, some second hand auctions are refusing to put EV’s through their auctions because they’re not making the reserve prices. 

Manufacturers need to shift their products to small, decently equipped EV’s around the £20-23k. Any legacy company that comes up with a reliable family sized EV with a decent range (250 miles) for that price, will do well IMHO. 

They also need to sort out the crap dealerships who don’t have a fucking clue on most repairs and think they can get away with charging several hundred £££‘s to diagnose a fault and palm customers off with expensive repairs that even aren’t needed. 
At the moment, most people have to wait months just to get their EV into a dealership workshop for diagnosis, then wait several weeks for parts to arrive. That’s even if they have mechanics trained to work on EV’s. 🤬
 

In the US several insurance companies refuse to insure EVs as minor accidents tend to total them, especially if there is a ding to the batteries.

[KhunDon]

Just saw on BBC News that over 2 million Teslas are being recalled because of a fault in their automated steering system or something like that. 
Not sure if “recall” means going into the workshop for repairs or if it will be done with OTA updates at this point. 
Didn’t mention UK Teslas in the article. 
 

[Zeb]

25 minutes ago, KhunDon said:

Not sure if “recall” means going into the workshop for repairs or if it will be done with OTA updates at this point. 

Tesla recalls 2 million cars with ‘insufficient’ Autopilot safety controls

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Tesla will send out a software update to fix the problems

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/12/13/tesla-autopilot-recall/

 

[Jambo]

Why is a service so expensive on EV's?

[Zeb]

35 minutes ago, Jambo said:

Why is a service so expensive on EV's?

What EV's in particular are you talking about and how much is being charged ? Examples please.

To what extent does pricing vary widely from brand to brand where you are? Examples please.

What do you regard as 'expensive' & how does this compare to servicing costs for petrol cars etc ?

 

[Jambo]

6 hours ago, Zeb said:

What EV's in particular are you talking about and how much is being charged ? Examples please.

To what extent does pricing vary widely from brand to brand where you are? Examples please.

What do you regard as 'expensive' & how does this compare to servicing costs for petrol cars etc ?

 

How the f**k would I know?

You do like your T's crossed and your i's dotted 🤣

My only knowledge is one guy who was moaning about the overnight 20K depreciation on his Porsche and a 1,000 pound bill for his annual service.

Lets start with your MG4.

How much is a full annual service?

[Zeb]

2 hours ago, Jambo said:

How the f**k would I know?

You do like your T's crossed and your i's dotted 🤣

My only knowledge is one guy who was moaning about the overnight 20K depreciation on his Porsche and a 1,000 pound bill for his annual service.

Lets start with your MG4.

How much is a full annual service?

Well you raised servicing of EV's as "expensive" and now you say you know very little about it apart from 'one guy' who is moaning.

See the point I'm making ?

Edited December 14, 2023 by Zeb

[Butch]

11 hours ago, Jambo said:

Why is a service so expensive on EV's?

Because a Manufacturer / Dealer needs to make up the difference of the cost of a regular ICE service, but using fewer parts. They then put a premium on EV parts to cover the shortfall they'd normally make on fluids. It is partly covered by not paying the environmental charge of disposal, but the Dealers never miss a trick to squeeze more out of the end user.

They will also charge for "Software updates" and stuff like "wheel alignment" based on the pretense that as the car is heavier than a regular ICE car, it needs to be done at every service. It may not be in mainstream Service plans as yet, but it will come.

10 hours ago, Zeb said:

What EV's in particular are you talking about and how much is being charged ? Examples please.

To what extent does pricing vary widely from brand to brand where you are? Examples please.

What do you regard as 'expensive' & how does this compare to servicing costs for petrol cars etc ?

 

Porsche. Taycan service in the local dealership, fixed price service plan £1200 - includes "cleaning of roof gutters". Since when did an ICE car have that included?.

It is however, known as the "big badge mark up".

Pricing varies as follows: Audi E-Tron first service £400 + VAT.

Staying at German Premium: BMW 340i X Drive First service: £231 + VAT

VAT is 20% in UK.

both 1 year.

The fact remains that as EV cars need less servicing and effectively fewer moving and therefore fewer "perishable" parts (clutches, wheel bearing assemblies bushes etc) then it stands to reason that it is cheaper to service them.

However, don't for one minute be under the false impression that those savings will be passed onto the end user, they won't. You'll be charged the same or more because the Dealerships can't afford to lose money on their biggest income stream, which is after sales service and parts.

They will do what they can to increase their margins, and if by charging EV owners a premium because of the tech they have in their cars, then they will. Anyone who doesn't believe or see that, needs to have a good look on the margins which Dealerships operate under. (dealerships do the servicing, not the manufacturers and they are often franchised).

 

 

 

[Butch]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:12 PM, Zeb said:

Yet that is exactly what is being done.

A lot a chasing down rabbit holes.

In the meantime time is running out for the legacy ICE manufacturers.

You need to qualify that in bold with an example.....please.

Data gathering is ongoing, but it doesn't mean that it is reliable or across a wide enough spectrum to predict certain trends. EV's simply have not been in mainstream use for long enough to get an accurate picture. That's part of the reason they are so expensive, because the R&D and investment essentially makes them as an end product with not much of a margin. They're still very "niche" and like every niche product, they are more expensive than a non niche one.

Tesla being the exception to the rule and also mostly down to marketing, but Teslas are shit, they always have been and are now only just getting to a point of reliability. Try insuring one in the UK though.

As time goes on and people become more familiar with EV's, as they did with Cars from horses and Aircraft from oversea travel, they will come down in cost. As tech steps forward and efficiency increases along with lifespan, that will effect as well.

Time will be a huge factor in making EV's cheaper to run and as time goes on, then it's all good news for the EV owners, and in fact excellent news for those entering the market, as secondhand EV's will offer immense bargains. If a half life EV is say, 200k, then for most people that life remaining is an awful lot of very cheap motoring.

 

The Legacy ICE manufacturers have more money to put into R&D than the Chinese ones. The only advantage the Chinese have is cheaper labour costs.

If the mainstream manufacturers are losing ground, then you need to give a like by like comparison on more than one equivalent from each manufacturer vs a Chinese one, and this time maybe make the comparison fair and not inaccurate like the Toyota one earlier.

One other point worth mentioning. There is one Home insurance Company in the UK withdrawing or refusing to cover a house with an EV charging station without supplementary insurance for it, namely because if the EV catches fire, then the Fire Brigade may not be able to fully contain it, plus the cost of cleaning up the toxic residue and the risk of it getting into local water courses.

[KhunDon]

2 hours ago, Butch said:

Because a Manufacturer / Dealer needs to make up the difference of the cost of a regular ICE service, but using fewer parts. They then put a premium on EV parts to cover the shortfall they'd normally make on fluids. It is partly covered by not paying the environmental charge of disposal, but the Dealers never miss a trick to squeeze more out of the end user.

They will also charge for "Software updates" and stuff like "wheel alignment" based on the pretense that as the car is heavier than a regular ICE car, it needs to be done at every service. It may not be in mainstream Service plans as yet, but it will come.

Porsche. Taycan service in the local dealership, fixed price service plan £1200 - includes "cleaning of roof gutters". Since when did an ICE car have that included?.

It is however, known as the "big badge mark up".

Pricing varies as follows: Audi E-Tron first service £400 + VAT.

Staying at German Premium: BMW 340i X Drive First service: £231 + VAT

VAT is 20% in UK.

both 1 year.

The fact remains that as EV cars need less servicing and effectively fewer moving and therefore fewer "perishable" parts (clutches, wheel bearing assemblies bushes etc) then it stands to reason that it is cheaper to service them.

However, don't for one minute be under the false impression that those savings will be passed onto the end user, they won't. You'll be charged the same or more because the Dealerships can't afford to lose money on their biggest income stream, which is after sales service and parts.

They will do what they can to increase their margins, and if by charging EV owners a premium because of the tech they have in their cars, then they will. Anyone who doesn't believe or see that, needs to have a good look on the margins which Dealerships operate under. (dealerships do the servicing, not the manufacturers and they are often franchised).

 

 

 

Pretty much every EV dealership will rip you off with their service charges. They’ll charge whatever they think they can get away with, starting with stupidly low service intervals. 

My car has to be serviced every 10k Miles 😡which is fucking stupid. When it goes, in early 24 it will have had 5 services at around 55k miles, plus an MOT and you have to get it serviced at a dealership using KIA OEM parts to retain the warranty.

 
You can buy set servicing deals, but they differ between manufacturers and dealerships, with, as expected most dealerships being the most expensive. 
Also, exactly what gets checked differs wildly, with some of the later service costs being ridiculously high for what they do. 

Thats the main reason I get rid of my cars at, or before, the 3 years is up and let the dealership or the next owner pay for the more expensive services. But I did that with my ICE cars as well. 
There are a few garages now like Cleevley who are extremely skilled in EV repairs and a hell of a lot cheaper as well and hopefully there will be many more in the future that will cause these dealerships prices to be reduced, but that’ll take time, until then, EV owners are at the mercy of these dealerships and their Sky high service and parts costs. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by KhunDon

[Butch]

Just now, KhunDon said:

Pretty much every EV dealership will rip you off with their service charges. They’ll charge whatever they think they can get away with, starting with stupidly low service intervals. 

My car has to be serviced every 10k Miles 😡which is fucking stupid. When it goes, in early 24 it will have had 5 services at around 55k miles, plus an MOT and you have to get it serviced at a dealership using KIA OEM parts to retain the warranty.

 
You can buy set servicing deals, but they differ between manufacturers and dealerships, with, as expected most dealerships being the most expensive. 
Also, exactly what gets checked differs wildly, with some of the later service costs being ridiculously high for what they do. 

Thats the main reason I get rid of my cars at, or before, the 3 years is up and let the dealership or the next owner pay for the more expensive services. 
There are a few garages now like Cleevley who are extremely skilled in EV repairs and a hell of a lot cheaper as well and hopefully there will be many more in the future that will cause these dealerships prices to be reduced, but that’ll take time, until then, EV owners are at the mercy of these dealerships and their Sky high service and parts costs. 

Totally agree.

It is unfair pricing, and as you say, dealerships have you by the nuts due to warranty tie ins. Some may say that the warranty is still valid if servicing etc carried out at a garage using genuine parts, which may be true in some cases, but the Dealerships now have several caveats in order to help them retain the business. EV's are a different kettle of fish due to the specialist nature.

The general running costs of an EV are, even for me, very attractive indeed. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not anti EV, I like the idea of 4WD and instant power, heaters and a (relatively) simple hassle free drivetrain, but I can't afford the one I want anyway, and I'm playing the long game on them. I truly think that in 4/5 years time, any 2023/24 EV will be a damn good purchase, hopefully heading to the bottom of the depreciation curve and way less than half way through its lifespan. The charging infrastructure will be established and hopefully an industry standard for chargers.

My friend runs a garage and we've discussed this many times. He's 44 so will be retraining himself to work on EV's, but he said, the problem is, that at the moment the technology is running ahead of the education, meaning that by the time he's got the basics, the advanced stuff needs to be learned and it's changing so rapidly between so many manufacturers, a single man band like himself won't keep up. As such he's decided to specialise in Fords and BMW's, as he's a former BMW Tech himself.

As more independent specialists start up and develop for EV's and hybrids, then I think the writing is on the wall for many dealerships as well.

 

 

[Zeb]

5 hours ago, Butch said:

You need to qualify that in bold with an example.....please.

This is what it related to -

On 12/13/2023 at 6:01 AM, Butch said:

this refers back to my earlier point in that EV's have not really been in mainstream use for long enough to offer a reasonably decent enough amount of data to compare.

Yet EV's are compared regularly to ICE vehicles as a matter of course,(notwithstanding what you referred to above as - "not really been in mainstream use for long enough to offer a reasonably decent enough amount of data to compare". 

This is done by consumers, manufacturers, dealers, government & regulators etc etc - the list can go on and on and debates, discussions etc can also go on and on and on.

Thats the rabbit hole I referred to - the one I have little interest in - because I have an EV I'm happy with and my main focus is enjoying it in the years I have left with reasonable health etc.

People can get an EV or not.

Argue the toss or not - its really up to them.

Doesn't mean I will never throw my two bob's worth in the mix - as events etc happen etc.

I will though make a few comments about dealers etc and my experience with them - regarding my patch of the woods - there may be some similarity to the UK scene and which you have commented on in other posts here today.

Will do so below as time permits, hopefully something fairly soon.

Christmas stuff pressing etc but will comment soon etc.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Zeb

[Zeb]

4 hours ago, KhunDon said:

Pretty much every EV dealership will rip you off with their service charges. They’ll charge whatever they think they can get away with, starting with stupidly low service intervals. 

My car has to be serviced every 10k Miles

 

4 hours ago, Butch said:

dealerships have you by the nuts due to warranty tie ins. Some may say that the warranty is still valid if servicing etc carried out at a garage using genuine parts, which may be true in some cases, but the Dealerships now have several caveats in order to help them retain the business

 

I agree with so much of the above posts.

Where I live the dealers business model is to make a huge chunk of their income from servicing after the sale, but that business model is broken, under market and regulatory challenge as well as changing.

Going back 15 - 20 years ago dealers tried imposing very expensive servicing via themselves in order to 'retain' warranty cover - speaking ICE vehicles here.

(This aspect alone would take pages to detail.)

This was of course successfully challenged under consumer law and dealers could either moderate serving costs or never see customers again.

Various Independent service garages emerged who offered reduced prices yet maintained the checks and maintenance to the level required to retain warranty. Some of the motoring organisations entered the market as well - think the equivalent of the RAC - the NRMA in NSW - but there were others.

The dealers turned to being dealers for a range car manufacturers - think 3 - 4 - 5 or more - all run by one overall dealer. They also serviced the vehicles of 3 - 4 - 5 different manufacturers - with varying degrees of success - and along came EV's.

Some dealers are once again trying - "Servicing has to be done by us to maintain warranty" - which will be challenged.

But MG and others are quoting "Precise Price Servicing" over the warranty period (7 years unlimited Km's in my MG4 for instance) and providing Roadside Assistance 24 hours x 365 days - provided you get servicing done with them. 

The cost of the Roadside Assist is not free - but pricing reflects in the servicing cost - of course.

My servicing interval is every 2 years or 40,000 km whichever comes first.

Every second service (4 years or 80,000 km) is more costly, however over an 8 year period of 4 services on an annualised basis the cost to me is AUD$ 300 pa for 8 years - call it 160 GB Pounds per x 8 years.

All up AUD $2,406 for 8 years service (About GBP 1,300)

I had Roadside Assist with NRMA for an almost 20 year old clunker prior to getting the MG4 which cost just under AUD$120 per year ( GBP 65) without the range of benefits I now get.

Over 8 years my prior Roadside Assist would have cost AUD$ 960 ( GBP 520) which is included in the All Up costs shown above.

Constant prices assumed for simplicity....

MG's Roadside Assist  comes with a range of additional benefits such as - Towing, Taxi, replacement vehicle hire if needed, Hotel accommodation, taxi to the hotel in addition to other assistance for other travel home if required.

I'm not locked to 8 years nor to a particular dealer.

I pay per service interval but the costs over 8 years are as above. "Precise Price Servicing" is not fixed price but anything can and probably will happen in 8 years

If I'm unhappy with the dealer I'll find another one.

An example of the 48 months/ 40,000 km service -

Check the function of the Parking Brake and adjust it as necessary.
Check the operation of the Lamps, Horns and system warning indicators.
Check operation and accuracy of windscreen wipers, washer and windscreen for damage - If the washer nozzles are adjustable, adjust them if required.
Check the status and function of seat belt.
Check various control function of A/C system.
Replace air-conditioning filter.
Check status and function of seat.
Check the condition of bonnet safety catch, tailgate/boot lid lock, door locks, hindges, door checks etc., Clean up all the dust and refill lubricating grease as necessary.
Check operation of electric sunroof, lubricate channels as necessary (If Fitted)
Check the connection and status of the 12v battery.
Check the High-Voltage harness for mutual interference, wear or damage. Check the appearance of the high/low-voltage connectors to comfirm surface is damaged or not.
Check the washer fluid level and add to the standard level as necessary.
Replace Brake fluid
Check the status of cooling system pipeline and connecting parts.
Replace Coolant
Check the status of the A/C system pipelinew such as the compressor, the cooling pipeline, and the condenser. Clean relevant surfaces as necessary.
Check the status of brake vacuum booster and hose.
Check the appearance of the high/low-voltage connectors to confirm the surface is damaged or not and installation is in place or not.
Check the high/low-voltage harness for mutual inteference, wear or damage.
Check the appearance of the high/low-voltage battery pack vent valve for damage, and check installation marks to see if it has moved.
Check the status of the manual service switch to ensure reliable mounting and clean up the dust on the surface.
Check the mounting position of the cooling water pipe and clip to ensure reliable sealing.
Check the installation marks of any high-voltage battery pack mounting bolts and ensure the bolts are fastened.
Check the appearance of high-voltage battery housing (including bracket) for crack or deformation.
Check the appearance of high-voltaqe battery pack grounding wire and replace it as necessary.
Check the status and thickness of front and rear brake pads and brake discs, and repalce them as necessary.
Check brake pipes and hoses for condition and security. Ensure that hoses and not twisted or kinked.
Check the wheel bearings and drive shaft sleeve.
Check the suspension and steering system for leakage or wear.
Check the tyres for tread depth and signs of damage, deformation, or uneven tyre wear, including the spare tyre (if equipped). Check the four-wheel alignment data and perform front and rear wheel rotation as appropriate.
Check tyre pressures and adjust as necessary, including the spare tyre (if equipped).
Check if the chassis and underbody bolts and nuts are fastened or fixed, and replace them as necessary.
Replace the electric drive transmission fluid
Check the electric drive transmission mounting bracket.
Use diagnostic software to reset service reminder interval indicator. Check for fault codes and determine operational status of the control systems.
Check software version of electronic control units and upgrade to latest version if available.
Check the equilibrium state of the high-voltage battery pack and suggest the owner carry out an equalising charge as necessary.
Carry out road test, and check the status and function of power system, brake, steering and other systems.

........................

The BYD Dolphin is a similar vehicle to the MG4, but the BYD & MG both have different levels of trim which make the same brand vehicles as virtually different models - something I won't be going into much detail about.

MG have a dealer network in Australia which may also sell the vehicles of any number of manufacturers.

BYD don't have traditional dealers per say in Australia and it all looks a bit 'messy' to me.

I almost bought a BYD but the MG was what I wanted

BYD China has a financial interest in EV Direct which imports BYD's into Australia.

mycar, is the Official Australian BYD Service Partner 

Eagers Australia are dealers to the following brands as well as BYD-

Abarth
Alfa Romeo
Audi
BMW
Bentley
Chery
Chrysler Jeep
Cupra
Fiat
Fiat Professional
Ford
GMSV
HSV
Hino
Holden
Honda
Hyundai
Hyundai Trucks
Isuzu Trucks
Isuzu Ute
Iveco
Jaguar
Jeep
Kia
LDV
Land Rover
Lexus
MG
Mack
Mercedes-Benz
Mini
Mitsubishi
Nissan
Parts Distribution
Peugeot
Porsche
Pre-Owned
Ram
Renault
Skoda
SsangYong
Subaru
Suzuki
Toyota
UD
Volkswagen
Volvo
Volvo Trucks
Zooper
easyauto123

......................................

I'm sure to have left stuff out - doing this somewhat on the hop.

Plus I'm sure there are changes that will happen as well....

Such is life.

😋

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Zeb