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Sea-Hawks

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So it is recommended that I buy a surge protector for my tv/entertainment center.  Do I go with the #2,000 baht or the cheaper Panasonic ? Is there really a difference between the two? They both are surge/circuit breakers?

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Also, I never have attached my fridge to a surge protector, just always directly to the wall.  Someone told me that I should use one and another person said not needed....so which one is is ???

Does a refrigerator need to be connected to a surge protector?

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Never in my life overseas have I seen a fridge equipped with a surge protector.

Computer and delicate high tech HiFi equipment , yes.

Fridge and TV, I always heard are more at risk  during a tropical storm if lightning strucks near the house. Or God forbid, the TV satelite dish ! 

 

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surge protectors, good ones, are essential for anything with a voltage reducer built in.  as an example a PC has a big box inside it that converts from 220 to small voltage.  i have replaced dozesns of them damaged due to surges here.  also cheap shit like phone chargers will blow in a nano second.

 

in the studio we have them now everywhere and the transmitter records surges which can be up to and over 300v.    think of it as insurance.  as to a fridge, never seen anyone have that, for a TV its a good idea perhaps as theya re built cheap but i have never used one and never lost a screen or tv in a storm or surge.

 

THailand has very little in the way of surge protection within its grid.  unlike Europe, spikes are very very common  especially during a storm or when power comes back on after a cut,  i would recommend a USP box over those you show as they have batteries that allow the units to run for a short while.  

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24 minutes ago, tommy dee said:

  i would recommend a USP box over those you show as they have batteries that allow the units to run for a short while

100% agreed. Always had one on my PC's

Nowadays with most people using laptops, there is less need for it.

 

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9 hours ago, code_slayer_bkk said:

Don't go by what I say .. because I know zilch about electricity ..  I do buy the most expensive surge protectors I can find ... never plugged a refrigerator into one ... TVs always ... PCs I have a couple of UPS systems I use ... 

I did a search on how well UPS systems are for surge protection. Turns out dedicated surge protectors are much better than the run of the mill UPS for surge protection. Like you I have all my computers and electronic gear plugged into various UPS's scattered around the house. Never had a surge blow out any of my gear that was plugged into a UPS, but now I'm wondering if that was just luck. Are your UPS systems plugged into surge protectors?

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4 hours ago, forcebwithu said:

I did a search on how well UPS systems are for surge protection. Turns out dedicated surge protectors are much better than the run of the mill UPS for surge protection. Like you I have all my computers and electronic gear plugged into various UPS's scattered around the house. Never had a surge blow out any of my gear that was plugged into a UPS, but now I'm wondering if that was just luck. Are your UPS systems plugged into surge protectors?

Surge protectors should be an integral part of a good UPS, both over and under voltage and over current. 

Edited by Scotty
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4 hours ago, forcebwithu said:

I did a search on how well UPS systems are for surge protection. Turns out dedicated surge protectors are much better than the run of the mill UPS for surge protection. Like you I have all my computers and electronic gear plugged into various UPS's scattered around the house. Never had a surge blow out any of my gear that was plugged into a UPS, but now I'm wondering if that was just luck. Are your UPS systems plugged into surge protectors?

Yes ... but, I don't know why .. I just did it ... I think because I had 3 - 4 good ones laying around and said to myself " WTF - these can't hurt"

I am not sure what these things are called .. where the electricity goes out for a 30 seconds or a minute and then it comes back on .. but, in BKK where  I live they happen 4 - 5 times a month ( even more than that sometimes ) .... in the South at home it never happens .... 

I have only gotten 1 gigantic server plugged into the UPS now .. seems the power supplies would always go bad and it didn't matter how expensive the power supply was that I replaced em with ... seems portables ( laptops ) are much more forgiving .. so, I have VMs running everywhere on all of my laptops connected to a couple of LANS ... all plugged into a couple of UPS which are plugged into surge protectors ...

For a while I plugged surge protectors into the UPS ( because it gave me more outlets ) ... but, now no ... I cleaned up the mess ... so .. just the UPS are plugged into surge protectors which plug into the wall outlet ..

Edited by code_slayer_bkk
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On 8/29/2020 at 10:22 PM, Sea-Hawks said:

So it is recommended that I buy a surge protector for my tv/entertainment center.  Do I go with the #2,000 baht or the cheaper Panasonic ? Is there really a difference between the two? They both are surge/circuit breakers?

88B37B91-0A63-410B-85D8-02BE81E818C6.jpeg

 

 

 

34C515AA-A99E-491B-B3FB-853621AD0B52.jpeg

 

Also, I never have attached my fridge to a surge protector, just always directly to the wall.  Someone told me that I should use one and another person said not needed....so which one is is ???

Does a refrigerator need to be connected to a surge protector?

6F92515B-E2FA-4B53-A614-F21C3649AE64.jpeg

 

As previously said, no need to have surge protection on a fridge. Recommended for sensitive electronic equipment for sure!

Edited by boydeste
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"Fridge and TV, I always heard are more at risk  during a tropical storm" 

I always used to laugh at my elderly mum when she would unplug the tv and fridge during storms. Until her neighbours fridge and tv blew out that is....... She never let me forget it either! 

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2 hours ago, biggles said:

"Fridge and TV, I always heard are more at risk  during a tropical storm" 

I always used to laugh at my elderly mum when she would unplug the tv and fridge during storms. Until her neighbours fridge and tv blew out that is....... She never let me forget it either! 

Yea, Beach gal does the same thing ... unplugs everything except the fridge ... drives me nuts .. but, I remain quiet ....

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Today is Thursday, the 3rd. The electric grid went down about 8:00 AM and it is still off. This is why I love my solar systems. I am able to run a large refrigerator and freezer off my battery bank but only during the day when the sun is shining. The battery bank is not big enough to run them continuously. One hint for anyone interested in building a system is to remember that the sun doesn't shine every day. I have double the recommended panels. They fully charge my battery banks even during cloudy and rainy weather. I built both systems myself. You will likely be disappointed with installers because they will never install enough panels to cover rainy days. Experts have told me that I am wasting power. I have no problem with that because solar panels are much cheaper today and they will last far longer than the rest of the components. Too many is far better than not enough. Today is a little overcast and my battery banks are nearly fully charged at 9:00 AM. My goal was not to save money but to have a reliable electricity supply. My Chinese components have been surprisingly trouble free. The systems and batteries are nearly ten years old. I might add that the high tech expensive AGM sealed batteries only lasted about five years before I replaced them. I did fry one inverter by experimenting. It was entirely my fault and a replacement inverter cost less than $100. I do have spares for every component but have not needed them. During the past year, I built a very small system for my outside game room. (Formerly my garage) One solar panel and one sealed battery for my surveillance cameras. It also has one 10 watt LED light for when the power is off. I bought a sealed deep cycle battery because I didn't want to have to maintain it and add water to the battery. It was install and forget. It just keeps working. All the rest of the batteries are lead acid deep cycle and I do have to add water to them.

Edited by Gary
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4 hours ago, Gary said:

Today is Thursday, the 3rd. The electric grid went down about 8:00 AM and it is still off. This is why I love my solar systems. I am able to run a large refrigerator and freezer off my battery bank but only during the day when the sun is shining. The battery bank is not big enough to run them continuously. One hint for anyone interested in building a system is to remember that the sun doesn't shine every day. I have double the recommended panels. They fully charge my battery banks even during cloudy and rainy weather. I built both systems myself. You will likely be disappointed with installers because they will never install enough panels to cover rainy days. Experts have told me that I am wasting power. I have no problem with that because solar panels are much cheaper today and they will last far longer than the rest of the components. Too many is far better than not enough. Today is a little overcast and my battery banks are nearly fully charged at 9:00 AM. My goal was not to save money but to have a reliable electricity supply. My Chinese components have been surprisingly trouble free. The systems and batteries are nearly ten years old. I might add that the high tech expensive AGM sealed batteries only lasted about five years before I replaced them. I did fry one inverter by experimenting. It was entirely my fault and a replacement inverter cost less than $100. I do have spares for every component but have not needed them. During the past year, I built a very small system for my outside game room. (Formerly my garage) One solar panel and one sealed battery for my surveillance cameras. It also has one 10 watt LED light for when the power is off. I bought a sealed deep cycle battery because I didn't want to have to maintain it and add water to the battery. It was install and forget. It just keeps working. All the rest of the batteries are lead acid deep cycle and I do have to add water to them.

Is your system ok to run aircon units ? 

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2 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Is your system ok to run aircon units ? 

The larger system will but not for long enough. It's simply too small to be effective. 

ADDED - for no more than I run the aircon, it wouldn't be worth it to expand the system. I smoke and my wife hates the smell. If I do run the aircon, I have to close six windows or try to cool the outside. I'm too lazy to close all the windows so use the aircon even less.

 

Edited by Gary
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37 minutes ago, boydeste said:

You usually get what you pay for when we are talking about electrics.

Bear that in mind when making your choices.

Aye, don’t want to come home to my house being burnt down to a crisp so will stick to officially approved electrical stuff rather than save a few quid....

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, in the past I bought regular western style bbq’s. Weber circle dome for charcoal and rectangular stainless steel for the gas grill. 

I still plan to buy a Weber as my charcoal grill...

But, for the gas - thinking about a thai brand...any thoughts, ideas out there??? Anybody bought this or something similar?

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On 9/3/2020 at 9:26 AM, Gary said:

Today is Thursday, the 3rd. The electric grid went down about 8:00 AM and it is still off. This is why I love my solar systems. I am able to run a large refrigerator and freezer off my battery bank but only during the day when the sun is shining. The battery bank is not big enough to run them continuously. One hint for anyone interested in building a system is to remember that the sun doesn't shine every day. I have double the recommended panels. They fully charge my battery banks even during cloudy and rainy weather. I built both systems myself. You will likely be disappointed with installers because they will never install enough panels to cover rainy days. Experts have told me that I am wasting power. I have no problem with that because solar panels are much cheaper today and they will last far longer than the rest of the components. Too many is far better than not enough. Today is a little overcast and my battery banks are nearly fully charged at 9:00 AM. My goal was not to save money but to have a reliable electricity supply. My Chinese components have been surprisingly trouble free. The systems and batteries are nearly ten years old. I might add that the high tech expensive AGM sealed batteries only lasted about five years before I replaced them. I did fry one inverter by experimenting. It was entirely my fault and a replacement inverter cost less than $100. I do have spares for every component but have not needed them. During the past year, I built a very small system for my outside game room. (Formerly my garage) One solar panel and one sealed battery for my surveillance cameras. It also has one 10 watt LED light for when the power is off. I bought a sealed deep cycle battery because I didn't want to have to maintain it and add water to the battery. It was install and forget. It just keeps working. All the rest of the batteries are lead acid deep cycle and I do have to add water to them.

My Thai builder is always full of smart ideas, but they often don't seem very practical to me, or else I just don't understand what he's going on about (more likely, lol). A few weeks ago he was telling me about how much solar panels have come down in price, but I didn't take much notice. Anyway, I was in Thai Watsadu and happened to notice a 330W solar panel selling for a bit over 3,000 Baht. So three of these things would generate 1kW, at least when the sun's shining, for an outlay of around 10,000 Baht.

Making a broad assumption that, on average, allowing for cloudy days and rain, they would be able to generate power for eight hours a day, that would provide 8kW-hr a day. The PEA tariff is around 4.5 Baht/kW-hr, so the three panels would generate 36 Baht/day of electricity. That's over 13,000 Baht a year, which more than pays for the panels in a single year. Of course, you also have to buy suitable batteries and have somebody cable it in safely for you, and maybe a transformer, I'm not sure, but I'd guess that within two years tops the system would have paid for itself. About right, or far too optimistic?

Then you have the advantages that you mention of no mains voltage spikes and so on, it sounds like a win-win situation, not to mention getting on Greta's Christmas card list, lol. Sure, on a damp, grey morning like we've got today, courtesy of tropical storm Noul, it probably wouldn't generate much, but Pattaya is mostly a pretty sunny place.

Is my assumption of the system providing power for an average of eight hours a day reasonable, or too optimistic?

And roughly what are the costs for, say, a 1kW system, of the batteries and other stuff needed beyond the actual solar panels?

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1 hour ago, Toy Boy said:

My Thai builder is always full of smart ideas, but they often don't seem very practical to me, or else I just don't understand what he's going on about (more likely, lol). A few weeks ago he was telling me about how much solar panels have come down in price, but I didn't take much notice. Anyway, I was in Thai Watsadu and happened to notice a 330W solar panel selling for a bit over 3,000 Baht. So three of these things would generate 1kW, at least when the sun's shining, for an outlay of around 10,000 Baht.

Making a broad assumption that, on average, allowing for cloudy days and rain, they would be able to generate power for eight hours a day, that would provide 8kW-hr a day. The PEA tariff is around 4.5 Baht/kW-hr, so the three panels would generate 36 Baht/day of electricity. That's over 13,000 Baht a year, which more than pays for the panels in a single year. Of course, you also have to buy suitable batteries and have somebody cable it in safely for you, and maybe a transformer, I'm not sure, but I'd guess that within two years tops the system would have paid for itself. About right, or far too optimistic?

Then you have the advantages that you mention of no mains voltage spikes and so on, it sounds like a win-win situation, not to mention getting on Greta's Christmas card list, lol. Sure, on a damp, grey morning like we've got today, courtesy of tropical storm Noul, it probably wouldn't generate much, but Pattaya is mostly a pretty sunny place.

Is my assumption of the system providing power for an average of eight hours a day reasonable, or too optimistic?

And roughly what are the costs for, say, a 1kW system, of the batteries and other stuff needed beyond the actual solar panels?

I have three solar systems that I have built. First, don't believe the wattage figures advertised.  You will be fortunate to get about half of the wattage advertised for maybe 5 hours a day. Your installation will not even be close to their laboratory testing.  Cloudy overcast and rainy days drastically cut production. For instance, my largest system has double the number of panels recommended. There are 4 250 watt panels The panels have a very long life and are now cheap enough to double up. Those 4 panels feed a 40 amp MPPT charge controller. Cheaper charge charge controllers are not very efficient. MPPT controllers convert the extra voltage into usable amps. It feeds 4 6 volt 225 ah golf cart batteries. They are connected to give 12 volts so the total amp hours is 450. They cost approximately 5,000 baht each. The batteries feed a 1,500 watt pure sine wave inverter. Decent quality components cost more and my inverter is also oversized. Running an inverter at near the capacity causes it to get fairly hot. My oversized inverter stays barely warm to the touch. With wiring and decent quality components you can add about another 10,000 baht to the cost.

I should add that I didn't build my systems to save money. The electric grid here sucks. I wanted stable voltage and 24/7 electricity. I have no idea if I will ever get a payback but really don't care. I have a backup inverter and charge controller but the systems have been VERY reliable and they have not been needed over all these years. It is very important to never run the batteries below 12.1 volts. (fifty percent discharge). They need to be fully charged every day. I have seen guys fry an expensive battery bank by running the deep cycle batteries down too low. They may call them deep cycle batteries but that doesn't mean that you can abuse them or run the acid level below the plates.

I like the idea of lithium batteries but the components are special and the batteries are sill priced too high. Keeping the deep cycle lead acid batteries serviced is a pain but they will last many years if taken care of.

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The "protector" in a surge protector is a metal oxide varistor or MOV for short.

image.png

They are normally "open circuit" but when an over voltage occurs they go "short circuit", going back to open circuit when the over voltage disappears.

There are usually 3 MOVs in a surge protector.

  • one between the active and neutral legs.
  • one between the active and earth legs.
  • one between the neutral and earth legs.

If the wall outlet doesn't have an earth then a surge protector isn't going to do much good 'cause they dump the overload to earth.

Sometimes the MOVs may be pairs connected in parallel to improve the overload handling capacity.

MOVs lose a life each time they protect (although the exact number of lives is not known). When they fail they may

  • go open circuit which is ok, just no protection.
  • go short circuit, normally the circuit breaker/fuse will tell you something is wrong.
  • go low resistance, not low enough to blow the fuse but low enough to cause excessive heat and set fire to the plastic case of the surge protected power board.

Your modern day fridge/TV most likely has the same sensitive electronic components as you PC/phone.

The MOVs in a domestic surge protected power board cost less than a $1 per MOV. 

https://zerosurge.com/truth-about-movs/

 

 

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1 hour ago, Toy Boy said:

My Thai builder is always full of smart ideas, but they often don't seem very practical to me, or else I just don't understand what he's going on about (more likely, lol). A few weeks ago he was telling me about how much solar panels have come down in price, but I didn't take much notice. Anyway, I was in Thai Watsadu and happened to notice a 330W solar panel selling for a bit over 3,000 Baht. So three of these things would generate 1kW, at least when the sun's shining, for an outlay of around 10,000 Baht.

Making a broad assumption that, on average, allowing for cloudy days and rain, they would be able to generate power for eight hours a day, that would provide 8kW-hr a day. The PEA tariff is around 4.5 Baht/kW-hr, so the three panels would generate 36 Baht/day of electricity. That's over 13,000 Baht a year, which more than pays for the panels in a single year. Of course, you also have to buy suitable batteries and have somebody cable it in safely for you, and maybe a transformer, I'm not sure, but I'd guess that within two years tops the system would have paid for itself. About right, or far too optimistic?

Then you have the advantages that you mention of no mains voltage spikes and so on, it sounds like a win-win situation, not to mention getting on Greta's Christmas card list, lol. Sure, on a damp, grey morning like we've got today, courtesy of tropical storm Noul, it probably wouldn't generate much, but Pattaya is mostly a pretty sunny place.

Is my assumption of the system providing power for an average of eight hours a day reasonable, or too optimistic?

And roughly what are the costs for, say, a 1kW system, of the batteries and other stuff needed beyond the actual solar panels?

The output quoted for solar panels is for STC (standard test conditions).

STC is the set of criteria that a solar panel is tested at. Since voltage and current
change based on temperature and intensity of light, among other criteria, all solar panels
are tested to the same standard test conditions. This includes the cells’ temperature of 25℃
(77℉), light intensity of 1000 watts per square meter, which is basically the sun at noon,
and the atmospheric density of 1.5, or the sun’s angle directly perpendicular to the solar
panel at 500 feet above sea level.

https://www.altestore.com/blog/2016/04/how-do-i-read-specifications-of-my-solar-panel/#:~:text=STC is the set of,solar panel is tested at.&text=This includes the cells' temperature,500 feet above sea level.

Panel output decreases with temperature increase.

There is a website https://pvoutput.org/ where real world users describe their system and the instantaneous, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly outputs. If you drive the filters you should be able to limit the information to Thailand (or anywhere else in the world).

 

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20 hours ago, fygjam said:

The output quoted for solar panels is for STC (standard test conditions).

STC is the set of criteria that a solar panel is tested at. Since voltage and current
change based on temperature and intensity of light, among other criteria, all solar panels
are tested to the same standard test conditions. This includes the cells’ temperature of 25℃
(77℉), light intensity of 1000 watts per square meter, which is basically the sun at noon,
and the atmospheric density of 1.5, or the sun’s angle directly perpendicular to the solar
panel at 500 feet above sea level.

https://www.altestore.com/blog/2016/04/how-do-i-read-specifications-of-my-solar-panel/#:~:text=STC is the set of,solar panel is tested at.&text=This includes the cells' temperature,500 feet above sea level.

Panel output decreases with temperature increase.

There is a website https://pvoutput.org/ where real world users describe their system and the instantaneous, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and yearly outputs. If you drive the filters you should be able to limit the information to Thailand (or anywhere else in the world).

 

Today it is completely overcast, no sun. I'm happy to say that my double sized capacity solar panels are putting out less than 50 percent and still charging the batteries quite well as well as running everything. So called experts have told me that my systems are not efficient, BUT, they serve me well. Yes, I am wasting electricity but what is wasted cost nothing. I am able to use the extra power from full sun but I have to plug in an outlet and throw a double pole double throw switch to change from the grid to the battery bank. I'm not techie enough to make it automatic. That runs the refrigerator, some lights and a freezer. If I forget to change it back, my batteries would not last through the night. It's not worth the effort. I run eight surveillance cameras plus the router and WiFi from the battery bank 24/7. If using the grid, the power goes off (often) so do the cameras and recorders.

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