COVID 19 GLOBAL

[Krapow]

5 hours ago, Thai Spice said:

That's sure a part of it . 

The US pharma giants have a huge interest in all this. An important lobbying power,  are present in many "scientific" commitees to give their "neutral and objective advice", are speaking in the ears of ministers, not to speak about the coming elections.

Have a look at their share prices since this started... (I own one which is up 200% since 4 months..) 

They are sure not going to let a good health crisis go to waiste ! And have ZERO morality or ethical rules.

 

We can certainly agree there!

[Butch]

9 hours ago, dcfc2007 said:

You haven't explained anything clearly, you have given an opinion. My opinion is that with the right public health measures in place, such as shielding of the elderly and those with underlying conditions, greater encouragement of hand washing and personal hygiene, appropriate redeployment of health staff, PPE etc. There was no need to lock millions of healthy people in their homes, there was no need for Police to be searching peoples shopping for popcorn or other 'non-essential items', they used a hammer to crack a nut.

The ONS study on asymptomatic cases looked at cases across England, not the cruise ship study you are referring to, see below...

A large-scale study into Covid-19 infection rates in England has revealed that the majority were asymptomatic when they tested positive.

This was one of a number of findings of a Government-funded trial, led by Imperial College London, which saw 120,000 volunteers from the general population tested to see if they had Covid-19 between 1 May and 1 June. 

The aim was to gain insight into who was infected and comparing geography, age, sex, ethnicity, key worker status and symptoms.

The study also found that people of Asian ethnicity were more likely than those of white ethnicity to test positive for the virus, with the Government commenting that it 'is possible' this 'contributed towards the higher death rates observed in this ethnic group'.

Worryingly, 69% of people testing positive reported no symptoms on the day of the test or the previous week, although the Government said 'they may have developed symptoms later on and it doesn’t show how infectious they might have been at this time'.

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/government-study-finds-majority-of-covid-positive-patients-were-asymptomatic/20041157.article

Whether it's 50, 60 or 80%, the fact remains, the virus in the overwhelming majority of cases is either asymptomatic or mild. This is not ebola or mers, this is a manageable illness which causes fatalities in the very elderly, and those with severe underlying illnesses, only in rare and extreme cases does it kill young, fit and healthy people. 

There was no need for the nightingale hospitals, there never was any need. You are only giving anecdotal evidence about nurses, the truth is that the majority of nursing and medical staff were redeployed to empty nightingale hospitals.

I explained clearly that public health responses are specifically aimed at dealing with localised events , with flexibility built in. Not an opinion, that is a fact. Every NHS trust has policies for a public health response, and they vary although the bare bones of them are the same. The localised lockdowns we are seeing is an example of a public health response carried out within a small area.

As for your idea of not having lockdown, hand washing was encouraged, shielding of elderly was put in place, staff were redeployed, but the information the PHE had at the time was limited, so lockdown justified. C-19, without lockdown would have seen massive fatalities, moreover it gave the UK the one commodity it needed, which was time. It prevented the spread of the disease, thus stopping and preventing thousands of vulnerable people within the demographic from dying. Also, your opinion goes against that of pretty much every Govt affected by this worldwide, with a few exceptions.

Apologies for the mix up with the cruise ship study you are correct , I think I clicked on the first link rather than reading down the search page. 🙂

The study was done in May, the peak was March - April. As I said, asymptomatic does not mean harmless, it means not showing symptoms at the time of testing positive. Also, that in itself explains why lockdown was needed, if asymptomatic people wandered around, the disease will spread faster, thus infecting more and killing those more vulnerable. Italy, again.

How on earth can you say that "a majority of nurses were redeployed into Nightingale hospitals" -  my Mrs covers 3 Hospitals, there were NO Nightingale re deployments from any of them, in fact if it is indeed "the truth" give me the numbers, a source, where the Nurses went to and the staffing levels of the average Nightingale ward. You are not taking into account or appreciate the fact that many Nurses took to self isolation as well, thus reducing staffing levels in most Trusts, from small town Hospitals to the Major ones. Some were working at 40% staff capacity, so where would the "Majority" of Nurses to staff nightingale Hospitals come from?. In fact, the Military were due to help out if things got bad.

If the nightingale hospitals were empty,  they would not send staff to an empty hospitals, that's not anecdotal, that's from me having a very good understanding of the NHS staffing policy and how the NHS worked with C-19. Also, because lockdown was working, they had time to build the hospital, and also would have had warning that as it began to fill up, if ever, then they could redeploy Nurses from nearby Hospitals and possibly Military bases as relatively short notice.

 

[fforest]

Disney World tightens its mask policy and bans eating while walking

https://www.today.com/food/disney-world-tightens-its-mask-policy-bans-eating-while-walking-t187343?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

 

 

 

[fforest]

Broward County Officials Now Require Citizens Wear Masks WITHIN THEIR OWN HOMES

https://nationalfile.com/broward-county-orders-follow-mask-rules-in-your-own-home/

Broward County administrator Bertha Henry has ordered residents of the Florida county to follow all mask requirements while they are on their own residential property

 

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/07/people-nuts-broward-county-officials-now-require-citizens-wear-masks-within-homes/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons

Edited July 21, 2020 by fforest

[Krapow]

[fygjam]

5 hours ago, roobob said:

I was going to move on... but I am getting sick of you calling me a liar.

The figures were mentioned/referred/ announced/ told.....put any word you want..... and put out in the public domain by the the Commonwealth Deputy Chief Medical Officer Paul Kelly. 

Commonwealth Deputy Chief Medical Officer Paul Kelly was the Government spokesman at the time.... he released it to the Australian media. Sugar coat it any way you want.... the bottom line it was stated by the Govt spokesman at the time. The evidence is there...  in fact you posted as such.  

As KWA said... you seem to have an agenda with me.. as can be seen by your posts and I take umbrage to being called a liar by you. When people start going the personal potshots in a discussion ...it usually means they have nothing.... and that is the case here. You have been proven wrong of what was said.... you do not want to accept the fact... no problem..... but it is time you eased up on the keyboard bashing running around calling people liars just because they differ in opinion.

cheers

In post #5321 you said

Example....Australians were told there would be 150,000 deaths from CV19 straight up .... even before the authorities had a full handle on the virus... and when questioned  why some things were being put in place...the stock answer was.. we will have 150,000deaths from it....... not "maybe".... but ..."will".  To date, Australia has had 122 deaths

All decisions were made on that "magic" number... even when it became evident that the virus would not hit as hard as they predicted.... they held forth and did not adapt to the situation at hand.

In post #5323 I disputed that claim and in post #5327 you disputed my dispute.

In post #5328 I explained where the 150,000 deaths figure had come from, a SMH article. I mistakenly attributed the figure to the Acting Commonwealth Chief Medical Officer, Paul Kelly. In fact Kelly had NOT mentioned any figures at all, he chose not to speculate on the potential number of deaths. The figures came from the journalist who wrote the article.

In post #5329 you misrepresented what I had posted saying in part

Thanks for confirming what I said. Now in bold above..... first you say the figure is used..... then you say it was not necessarily used.

I did NOT confirm what you said nor did I say the figure was used.

In posts #5330, #5332 and #5333 I challenged you on the misrepresentation giving you the chance to either substantiate or retract the claim made about my post.

You chose to respond by adding     to my challenges.

If you opt to misrepresent what I post and neither substantiate or retract then I'll call it as I see it.

In a similar fashion you have had ample opportunity to substantiate your other claims.

• Australians were told there would be 150,000 deaths from CV19 straight up. Not from any official source, speculation by a journalist is not an official source.
• the stock answer was.. we will have 150,000deaths from it. Proof?
• All decisions were made on that "magic" number. Proof?

Without any evidence to support your claims it's obvious ant anything you say on this particular matter needs to be consumed with large dollops of sodium chloride.

 

[Butch]

Maybe we can all agree that in the UK at least, one utter travesty  of this was the poor handling of the Care homes. I personally think the blame lies at the feet of the Govt for not providing enough initial guidance, PPE and not enough was done to protect the (private sector) staff. The inaction and poor response, planning and guidance cost lives, many of whom come from the generation we owe the most to.

Hopefully there will be an admission of some kind by the Govt, and maybe the chance for some closure to those who lost loved ones because of the poor handling of it.

[Krapow]

38 minutes ago, Butch said:

Maybe we can all agree that in the UK at least, one utter travesty  of this was the poor handling of the Care homes. I personally think the blame lies at the feet of the Govt for not providing enough initial guidance, PPE and not enough was done to protect the (private sector) staff. The inaction and poor response, planning and guidance cost lives, many of whom come from the generation we owe the most to.

Hopefully there will be an admission of some kind by the Govt, and maybe the chance for some closure to those who lost loved ones because of the poor handling of it.

My Dad's in a care home  in Northern Ireland after a bad stroke. 

Thankfully, Northern Ireland wasn't hit anywhere near as hard as the mainland.  That said, my brother sent me a pic of him and our father on Sunday, the first time in 4 months anyone from the family had been able to see him, except outside  the home, outside of a window to his room. I was quite emotional when i seen it, though not as much as he would have been. The home is only allowing one family visit a week at present, but it's a start, and i fully understand and respect their rules and reason for doing so. They have remained Covid free throughout. 

But yea, i hear ya, good way for the Gov to deal with the Pension crisis ...

Edited July 21, 2020 by Krapow

[Washedup]

Pandemic won't be the last or worst, not my words. Professor from the Lancet. Better Hold Fast 

[dcfc2007]

11 hours ago, Butch said:

I explained clearly that public health responses are specifically aimed at dealing with localised events , with flexibility built in. Not an opinion, that is a fact. Every NHS trust has policies for a public health response, and they vary although the bare bones of them are the same. The localised lockdowns we are seeing is an example of a public health response carried out within a small area.

As for your idea of not having lockdown, hand washing was encouraged, shielding of elderly was put in place, staff were redeployed, but the information the PHE had at the time was limited, so lockdown justified. C-19, without lockdown would have seen massive fatalities, moreover it gave the UK the one commodity it needed, which was time. It prevented the spread of the disease, thus stopping and preventing thousands of vulnerable people within the demographic from dying. Also, your opinion goes against that of pretty much every Govt affected by this worldwide, with a few exceptions.

Apologies for the mix up with the cruise ship study you are correct , I think I clicked on the first link rather than reading down the search page. 🙂

The study was done in May, the peak was March - April. As I said, asymptomatic does not mean harmless, it means not showing symptoms at the time of testing positive. Also, that in itself explains why lockdown was needed, if asymptomatic people wandered around, the disease will spread faster, thus infecting more and killing those more vulnerable. Italy, again.

How on earth can you say that "a majority of nurses were redeployed into Nightingale hospitals" -  my Mrs covers 3 Hospitals, there were NO Nightingale re deployments from any of them, in fact if it is indeed "the truth" give me the numbers, a source, where the Nurses went to and the staffing levels of the average Nightingale ward. You are not taking into account or appreciate the fact that many Nurses took to self isolation as well, thus reducing staffing levels in most Trusts, from small town Hospitals to the Major ones. Some were working at 40% staff capacity, so where would the "Majority" of Nurses to staff nightingale Hospitals come from?. In fact, the Military were due to help out if things got bad.

If the nightingale hospitals were empty,  they would not send staff to an empty hospitals, that's not anecdotal, that's from me having a very good understanding of the NHS staffing policy and how the NHS worked with C-19. Also, because lockdown was working, they had time to build the hospital, and also would have had warning that as it began to fill up, if ever, then they could redeploy Nurses from nearby Hospitals and possibly Military bases as relatively short notice.

 

Well we are now learning that PHE were lying about the figures, maybe if they had have been truthful from the beginning the response would have been so much different. When the study was done is irrelevant, it is now widely believed by a majority of health professionals, international bodies and governments, that Covid19 is asymptomatic in up to 80% of cases. That is not the point, the point is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, Covid is very mild illness. 

Have a read of this..

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/04/quiet-crisis-britain-s-missing-patients

Hospitals were describe as being 'eerily quiet'. They were so quiet in fact that by mid-April, during the so called 'peak', the CMO had to declare the NHS 'open for business'. Now tell me that paints a picture of a health service at breaking point. It was apparent almost immediately that the NHS was not near breaking point, it never came close to breaking point. The military being on standby, the huge morgues being prepared, the mass graves prepared, it was all a hysterical overreaction.

[lazarus]

Tennis anyone..?

[fforest]

 

[Britboy]

19 hours ago, Butch said:

Maybe we can all agree that in the UK at least, one utter travesty  of this was the poor handling of the Care homes. I personally think the blame lies at the feet of the Govt for not providing enough initial guidance, PPE and not enough was done to protect the (private sector) staff. The inaction and poor response, planning and guidance cost lives, many of whom come from the generation we owe the most to.

Hopefully there will be an admission of some kind by the Govt, and maybe the chance for some closure to those who lost loved ones because of the poor handling of it.

I have first hand experience of this.

You may have read my posts in other threads concerning my mother, who sadly passed away mid April. She had major stroke at home on March 27th and was taken to the local hospital and put into the Stroke Ward. They administered drugs in an attempt to disperse the clot(s), which failed. After 3 days they informed me that there was nothing more they could do for her and they were looking to transfer her to a care home to free the bed. We'd agreed at that point that she was to be put on end of life care.

I asked if she'd been tested for Covid and if not would they test her before she was moved to the care home? The answer was "no" on both counts.

I found that incredible.

In the end it didn't matter as she deteriorated still further and passed away after 4 days before the move could take place.

[fygjam]

https://www.vyzrtech.com/products/bio-vyzr

Note to @fforest. You may be able to get a metalised version to block out the 5G radiation.

 

[KhunDon]

We used to play with our masks that were left over from the war. The whole baby was shoved inside and mum or dad pumped the bellows. I chucked them out when I was clearing out dads attic a couple of years ago. 
Wish I’d kept them now, they’d be worth a fortune on EBay. ☹️
They only came in one colour, karki. Well, there was a war on, you must have read about it, as it was in all the papers at the time. 🤔

[coxyhog]

In the RAF in the 1970's NBC kit,very unpleasant to wear esp in the summer.

[coxyhog]

[lazarus]

The current situation in the US...from the essential worker perspective.
 

 

[Butch]

21 hours ago, dcfc2007 said:

Well we are now learning that PHE were lying about the figures, maybe if they had have been truthful from the beginning the response would have been so much different. When the study was done is irrelevant, it is now widely believed by a majority of health professionals, international bodies and governments, that Covid19 is asymptomatic in up to 80% of cases. That is not the point, the point is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, Covid is very mild illness. 

Have a read of this..

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/04/quiet-crisis-britain-s-missing-patients

Hospitals were describe as being 'eerily quiet'. They were so quiet in fact that by mid-April, during the so called 'peak', the CMO had to declare the NHS 'open for business'. Now tell me that paints a picture of a health service at breaking point. It was apparent almost immediately that the NHS was not near breaking point, it never came close to breaking point. The military being on standby, the huge morgues being prepared, the mass graves prepared, it was all a hysterical overreaction.

That link's behind a paywall for me mate. I'll try and find an alternative.

Hospitals were "eerily quiet" for a good reason, no visitors were allowed in and non essential operations cancelled, along with all elective surgeries and most outpatient appointments, many Wards and services were closed down and the staff told to either redeploy as per instructions or work from home if possible, it was part of the lockdown instructions, hence, yes, quiet hospitals. Patient numbers were deliberately decreased because, at the time, it was deemed to be a very high risk.

The NHS is always open for business, if it was closed then there would have been no treatment of Covid patients, and my Mrs would be out of a job. You are totally missing the context of the quote when Chris Whitty made it, he was instructing people that if they had a medical emergency to go to Hospital, because the pressure on the system by encouraging those with minor issues meant that the NHS could still deliver a service, it had NOTHING to do with the Hospitals being quiet, it was all about the fact that the NHS was still there and able to deliver its services. The NHS has the ability and capacity to deal with emergencies, pandemic or not, that was the point he was making.

https://www.facebook.com/skynews/videos/1579499415561415/

You seem to be talking in hindsight, but as you were not on the front line, then how could you possibly know what the situation was apart from what you read in the media?. The very same media you chastise so much for being liars and scare mongers.

When dealing with an infectious airborne disease, it's somewhat prudent to prevent people who might very possibly die from it by getting them somewhere safer than the hospital for the mid to long term, usually their own homes. It is about infection control.

The NHS was being stretched, due to Nurses self isolating (hence a fairly rapidly rushed through guidelines regarding Health workers and C-19 Isolation practices) and a lack of staff. Let me explain: Every day there is a team at every hospital under the title of "Trustwide Staffing", they manage staffing levels and redeployment as well as agency etc. Now, redeploying a Nurse from her normal Ward is something many are reticent to do because it can introduce an element of risk (Nurse gets stressed, unfamiliar colleagues, different environment) , so unless there is an imbalance of staff, the status quo remains unchanged. Now, with C-19 as I mentioned earlier, many Wards were changed into Isolation Wards, the staff of these wards were kept in situe and then given guidance on treating C-19 patients. This made many unhappy, obviously and this also led to increased risk to them due to exposure and lack of PPE, which in turn led to more self isolating.

Hospitals were (some still are) also divided into "Red" and "Green" zones. Green Zones have been quiet, because the public are (or were) discouraged in going there.

Not all Hospitals were at or near "breaking point" but several were, many went into the "Black alert" (OPEL 4 Status) - this is the yardstick by which "breaking point" (media term) is judged, and when at  the Trust in question issues the following that "actions have failed to contain service pressure and the local health economy is unable to deliver comprehensive emergency care".

It is a valid point to look back and say it was an over reaction, but we simply don't know what would have happened without lockdown and the preparation measures taking place. It's not unlike when the UK prepared for the planned German invasion during WW2, building defences, pill boxes and training clandestine commando units, getting the population ready to fight.

The Govt worked on the info and level of perceived threat back then, and they did exactly the same thing during the peak, which was to do their best to protect the lives of those in the Country.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Hospitals and doctors waiting rooms are a very obvious place to catch infections. Thus not only putting sick patients at risk but the medical staff themselves. A number of nurses and doctors on the front line died as a result of catching the virus

It seems very prudent to me, that at the start of the outbreak and as cases started to rise rapidly, that as much as possible was done to only see emergency patients. People with C19 symptoms were told not to go the doctor or visit hospital but dial 111 service to seek advice 

As I understand it, a number of wards were designated purely to deal with C19 emergencies. The point of building and preparing the Nightingale was to isolate those with the virus to one place

It makes sense to me that even doctor's surgeries were advising patients to call in first and physical appointments cut right back.

At the time there was not enough PPE equipment for all NHS staff let alone local doctors 

[Krapow]

[Thai Spice]

This tread is getting more boring than the climate change one .....

 

[fforest]

TruthVibrations111

 

I'm not saying a Bill Gates vaccine isn't safe , but the last person he experimented on changed sex

 

Jul 21

 

Replying to

@vibrations111

Different people A woman and a man

Melinda gates before and after....

Edited July 23, 2020 by fforest

[fygjam]

1 hour ago, Thai Spice said:

This tread is getting more boring than the climate change one .....

 

You mean you're going to stop reading and commenting on it?

[Thai Spice]

1 hour ago, fygjam said:

You mean you're going to stop reading and commenting on it?

Naah, I love comics and that's exactly what it has become !